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Crosswind landings

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Crosswind landings

Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:47
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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I once had to defend a TriShaw pilot who'd alarmed some REMF FJ Wg Cdr at MPA by 'large bank angles near the ground' on the final approach. Having spoken with ATC and obtained a tape, although the PAR was poorly flown, the final approach attitude was clearly due to the ex-Hercules pilot using the 'wing down' technique in the usual MPA crosswind, which was alien to this FJ Wg Cdr. In fact I'd been on board the TriShaw at the time and the landing seemed entirely routine from a passenger's point of view.

Anyone who 'kicks off' the drift or uses 'bootfulls' of rudder deserves a good kicking themselves! One merely aligns the aeroplane with the runway at the same rate which one uses to initiate the flare. Once down, into wind control column and forward pressure helps - although FBW aircraft may have some control laws of their own, I guess.

But if an A380 can cope with 40-50 kt crosswinds using the wing down crab technique, I'd have thought that pilots of smaller aircraft should also be able to manage the technique:


Last edited by BEagle; 25th Oct 2018 at 07:02. Reason: Wrong tekneek!
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 23:18
  #22 (permalink)  
 
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Beagle, my understanding of 'kicking off the drift' simply refers to the action, not the finesse! If you don't kick off the drift ie use your feet on the rudder, how else do you do it??
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 23:27
  #23 (permalink)  
 
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'Kicking' implies a sudden sharp input. Entirely unnecessary - just use a squeeze of rudder to align the aeroplane with the RW as you flare. Exactly as in that A380 video.

Modern aircraft probably compensate for the rolling moment which develops if a large yawing rate is used in swept wing aeroplanes.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 23:38
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Boeing 757/767 Flight Crew Trg Manual allows wing down (max25 kts xwd), crab followed by rwy alignment and crab only up to the ac xwd limitation which for the 757 is 40 kts. Not pretty, but legit. My RAF experience was ‘kicking off the drift’ for most ac and wing down for C130. The 75/76 doesn’t compensate for the roll due to yaw.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 23:43
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'Kicking' implies a sudden sharp input. Entirely unnecessary -
oh dear me. The entire aviation world understands the concept of 'kicking off the drift' except Beagle!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 07:11
  #26 (permalink)  
 
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Only that part of the 'aviation world' which persists in using incorrect descriptions!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 08:12
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Always found offsetting the Cockpit from the centreline a tadge during the approach helped prevent the usual dick-dance trying to regain it during the rollout. BTW, some B737 variants had 5° of castor built into the mains which (unofficially) tolerated a small amount of crab angle during touchdown
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 08:51
  #28 (permalink)  
 
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oh dear me. The entire aviation world understands the concept of 'kicking off the drift' except Beagle!
Sorry, but I am with BEagle on this. When instructors teach, especially when teaching someone whose “mother” tongue is not the same as yours it is vital that there is no ambiguity in what is being described. I’ve seen it so many times - a student being told to “push forward on the stick” resulting in an aggressive “bunt” or agricultural handling.

Back on topic... Boeing testing the triple...

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Old 25th Oct 2018, 08:54
  #29 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
Boeing 757/767 Flight Crew Trg Manual allows wing down (max25 kts xwd), crab followed by rwy alignment and crab only up to the ac xwd limitation which for the 757 is 40 kts. Not pretty, but legit. My RAF experience was ‘kicking off the drift’ for most ac and wing down for C130. The 75/76 doesn’t compensate for the roll due to yaw.
Thanks for that DHotel. The usual mix, with certified limit using fully drifted landing it seems? Can you comment on 75/76 Autoland, does it not use ALIGN (which is wing down) and what x-wind limit?

OAP
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 09:02
  #30 (permalink)  
 
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Thanks for the Vid DD! B747 and B777 doing fully drifted TD's, not aligning in the flare, maybe a hint of heading in the right direction on TD in one of those. Again, would be interested what the Makers certification for X-wind limit landings is? I guess, fully drifted to TD?

OAP
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 09:25
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OAP. A/L xwd limit 25 kts. The align mode is a sub mode initiated about 500’ which adds some wing down (max aob 2deg) if the crab exceeds 5deg, so a bit of both really. Very rare for lo vis to have much in the way of windiness so i’ve not seen a lot of this going on.

As as for terminology ‘kicking....etc’ is a bit of shorthand and I sort of take the view that no one is going to be using this forum as a definitive teaching aid for technique.

dh
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 10:08
  #32 (permalink)  
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OAP has got the wrong end of the stick, I was NOT slagging anyone off, just trying to have a reasonable discussion.
I related some of my experience to show I was not a 200 hr ppl and was trained by some of the very best quality organisations including the manufacturer of the aircraft I mentioned. ( although I have also operated the 767, quite a bit heavier than the 75). Decrab worked on that too!

I WAS however disagreeing with his statement, paricularly after discussing the issue with close relative, a former Airbus and now 787 training captain.

It it is interest that in “Handling the Big Jets” D P Davies describes removing the drift angle of a crabbed approach ( by pushing it off NOT “kicking “ his words) by co-ordinating the rudder input with aileron to keep the wings substantially level, particularly for podded engines.

Can we not not keep the discussion polite and objective?
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 10:37
  #33 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by deltahotel View Post
OAP. A/L xwd limit 25 kts. The align mode is a sub mode initiated about 500’ which adds some wing down (max aob 2deg) if the crab exceeds 5deg, so a bit of both really. Very rare for lo vis to have much in the way of windiness so i’ve not seen a lot of this going on.

dh
An interesting mixture on the 75/76 then, even with A/L limited to 25kt x-wind using a mix of crabbing and wing down. Cheers

OAP
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 10:37
  #34 (permalink)  
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 10:49
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Don't understand the problem; just turn the runway into wind - or land across it! Second bit works in the Tiger as well.

Mog
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 11:01
  #36 (permalink)  
 
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Hello BA/BY,
So good of you to return to your topic. I agree that you should keep your discussion polite and objective.
Now, instead of rudely referring to me (or anyone else) in the third person, as you still are, may suggest you are less rude and use the second person when addressing a forum member?
Cheers

OAP
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 11:05
  #37 (permalink)  
 
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ORAC
B52, all the main gears can align with the runway. You probably know!

OAP
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 11:31
  #38 (permalink)  
 
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The crosswind landing gear function is checked whilst taxying in the B-52. It felt weird to be moving diagonally across the RW at Barksdale whilst looking directly ahead when I experienced it!
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 11:46
  #39 (permalink)  
 
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The port outrigger apparently on the grass adds an extra dimension. I assume B-52s prefer 200ft wide runways.
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Old 25th Oct 2018, 19:59
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Never needed any of that kicking off drift nonsense in the F4.....
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