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Crosswind landings

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Crosswind landings

Old 24th Oct 2018, 10:52
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Crosswind landings


What is the current teaching/ practice of the RAF for crosswind landings, particularly on large jets, eg Voyager, Sentry, A400 etc?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 11:12
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First, stow your camera?

CG
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 12:10
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Obviously, it will be appropriate to the type. You finish with etc, but I guess you mean large aircraft generally? FWIW, the TriStar was approved by Lockheed for drifted or wing-down, up to 30kts x component in most conditions. However, RAF SOP taught wing-down.

OAP

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Old 24th Oct 2018, 18:22
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Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
Obviously, it will be appropriate to the type. You finish with etc, but I guess you mean large aircraft generally? FWIW, the TriStar was approved by Lockheed for drifted or wing-down, up to 30kts x component in most conditions. However, RAF SOP taught wing-down.

OAP
That surprised me as I thought it would have been crab and kick of the drift maintaining wings level.

Sentry is wings level. Any more than 5 degrees bank and you’ll scrape a pod.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 19:56
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VP,
Lockheed cleared either landing with drift applied or, wing down TD. "Kicking-off" drift is not a generally approved commercial transport technique. The wing down technique was approved with a limitation of 8 degrees of roll at TD, sufficient for a correctly applied aligned landing with 30kts across. However, the technique was not easy to master. Of course, A/L did it perfectly! And, so did some of us pilots!

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 20:05
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TriStar 500 wing pod clearance is 2'11". Don't think an RAF TriStar pod was ever scraped, despite routinely working into windy places.

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 20:40
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Originally Posted by MPN11 View Post
Yep. You try teaching it to a 150hrs TT Tyro!

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 20:41
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Ahh ... the link finally worked ... I had deleted the original post!

A good bootful of rudder at touchdown [and afterwards!].
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 20:46
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Once a pilot is wrong. I did my Boeing conversion at Seattle and they approved my crab, push off drift technique, hold wings level or slightly into wind, as did my conversion with BOAC onto the VC 10. The Boeing training manual said that wing down or crab was recommended x wind technique. It’s what I taught as a CFS approved RAF. QFI.( and as a Boeing TC) and what we did on the V aircraft ( underwing tanks and refuelling pods) and Canberra. ( wingtip tanks)

My x wind technique was taught to me as an RAF stude and for the rest of my career, I used the crab , push off drift in the flare to land aligned with the runway..

Landing with drift appplied was not considered good airmanship to say the least.

I ask the question as I recently saw a video of B 757 ( on which I have a lot of command time) being landed in a 40 knot x wind with no attempt to remove the drift angle. it looked truly awful.

I wondered what was being taught, is acceptable, these days.

Informed comment from those up to date?
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:03
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Retired BA/BY is wrong! Are you incapable of reasoned dialogue? Who mentioned Boeing, VC10 or your crab?

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:08
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Or Canberra's?

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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:26
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Where are you BA/BY? Do you want to slag a fellow CFS Flying Instructor again? Or, do you want to talk about flying aircraft TWICE the MTOW of your resume?

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:27
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I thougt that the original question referred to current RAF teaching - not specific aircraft types. All my RAF career (Many types and QFI) was the "crab" technique. Seemed to work, still here after some 20k hours!
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:40
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Originally Posted by Bill Macgillivray View Post
I thougt that the original question referred to current RAF teaching - not specific aircraft types. All my RAF career (Many types and QFI) was the "crab" technique. Seemed to work, still here after some 20k hours!
Bill
It was referrenced to large jets. Agree, my experience of Flying training and FJ was crab (drift corrected) to align in the flare. However, most decently large modern aircraft have approved operating standards that are very specific and are further defined by operator/company SOP's.
Would be glad to hear comments from other RAF big jet SOP's?

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 21:59
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Wing-down will always work, ensuring you land with no lateral drift, but it does mean a podded engine may be too close to the ground. Conversly, if you elect to crab, then unless you get it exactly right you're either going to land with lateral drift (ie you kicked the drift off too soon) or you'll still be crabbed off (ie kicked the drift off too late).

Of the various RAF ME types I've operated I've used both techniques, or even a blend of them (ie a bit of wing down but also some crabbing). The geometry of the tailwheel types requires them to be flown accurately aligned and with absolutely no lateral drift - so had to be flown wing-down, but also to a relatively low crosswind limit. The tricycle types will always yaw themselves straight after touchdown if you've not got it right, but it can feel very uncomfortable and can't do the gear much good.

Dont think I've ever seen a modern airliner using the wing-down technique.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:17
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Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
The tricycle types will always yaw themselves straight after touchdown if you've not got it right, but it can feel very uncomfortable and can't do the gear much good.
No. With a crosswind they will still experience aerodynamic Yaw forces into wind after TD. Large commercial aircraft have limiting structural strengths that have to define the landing technique. Many seem to certify the full drifted landing as the worst case. See video of X-wind certification landing tests.

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:27
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OAP. I agree about the aerodynamic forces (yaw) always being present at touchdown, but I'm referring to just the CofG v undercarriage geometry.
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:28
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Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
"Kicking-off" drift is not a generally approved commercial transport technique.

OAP
Interesting. It’s certainly approved on the B747s, B767s and A330s I’ve been flying for the last 20 years. Not only approved, but strongly preferred by my outfit. (Although ‘squeezing off’ might be a better description than ‘kicking off’.)
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:38
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Originally Posted by itsnotthatbloodyhard View Post


Interesting. It’s certainly approved on the B747s, B767s and A330s I’ve been flying for the last 20 years. Not only approved, but strongly preferred by my outfit. (Although ‘squeezing off’ might be a better description than ‘kicking off’.)
Interesting. I would be interested what it says in your operating manuals under "Crosswind landings", or "Crosswind landing technique". Maybe you can explain what your A/L does? Cheers

OAP
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Old 24th Oct 2018, 22:40
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Originally Posted by H Peacock View Post
OAP. I agree about the aerodynamic forces (yaw) always being present at touchdown, but I'm referring to just the CofG v undercarriage geometry.
Yes.

OAP
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