UK - More defence cuts
I do wonder how BBMF survive. Could they not be civilianised, given charitable status and moved to Duxford? Something along the Canadian model?
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,892
Received 2,832 Likes
on
1,210 Posts
I have found something they could cut without effecting operational commitments, it's this on the RAF website... the RAF's window on the world
https://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/seakingprototype.cfm
https://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/merlin.cfm
Seriously, kill the Reds off and get the BBMF farmed out as per the RNHF
https://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/seakingprototype.cfm
https://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/merlin.cfm
Seriously, kill the Reds off and get the BBMF farmed out as per the RNHF
I doubt if disbanding the Red Arrows and the BBMF will render anything other than further diminishing returns. Looking to chop stuff or centralise the Armed Forces further feeds into the very same spiral downwards. Nothing will change any British Government's regard for the Armed Forces as an emergency fund for everything else until we're back into a situation where we are fighting a war for survival once again. Same goes for the rest of Europe. Lord Richards was supporting further cuts inadvertently the other day on Forces News, there he was calling for a reduction in the role of the individual service chiefs, we should assign more authority the Chief of the Defence Staff. His implied point being the CDS should be the sole Defence Chief. Again, such an approach just pushes everything down the spiral toward utter insignificance.
FB
FB
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,892
Received 2,832 Likes
on
1,210 Posts
The RNHF is self supporting and costs the Navy nothing, hence go that route.
The Reds are a luxury we can no longer afford, the problem there is that is the one cut the Joe Public would take on board and would make them think. They are using 30 year old clapped out jets that the rest of the world has moved on from and are no longer really a relevance as a marketing tool for a British aircraft industry that has long since become a bit player.
The Reds are a luxury we can no longer afford, the problem there is that is the one cut the Joe Public would take on board and would make them think. They are using 30 year old clapped out jets that the rest of the world has moved on from and are no longer really a relevance as a marketing tool for a British aircraft industry that has long since become a bit player.
Probably because of the extra expense teaching soldiers about warships and teaching sailors about digging and bayonets.
If you take the RAF College Cranwell as an example you will find it has already combined with RAF officer and aircrew selection (for all services, in the latter case), flying training units, CFS, NCO Aircrew Training, Ascent (PFI), engineering training, logistics training and assorted others with a heavy dose of contractor support. As such it is pretty hard to find any savings, only additional expense if a fraction of it joined a one trick pony outfit such as Sandhurst.
If you take the RAF College Cranwell as an example you will find it has already combined with RAF officer and aircrew selection (for all services, in the latter case), flying training units, CFS, NCO Aircrew Training, Ascent (PFI), engineering training, logistics training and assorted others with a heavy dose of contractor support. As such it is pretty hard to find any savings, only additional expense if a fraction of it joined a one trick pony outfit such as Sandhurst.
Thinking out loud...We (the UK) need to figure out our role in the world post-Brexit, and make HM Forces fit for that role!
Do we batten down the hatches, scrap the Royal Marines and consign amphibiosity to the same dustbin as (proper) MPA, SAR, fleets of tanks and frigates; and just keep a Brigade on high-readiness as the armed-wing of Oxfam and a few Typhoons on H24 to meet the odd Bear H?
...or do we continue to be America's partner in the War on Terror (copyright 2001) once outside Europe and sail into victory on our new CVFs with a glorious fleet of 40 Lightnings (no risk of attrition then!), air-assaulting the next 'sh!t-h0le' country into the 2020s with lashings of Chinooks and Paras, kicking down doors around the world?
..or will we continue to salami-slice everything and do ALL of the above with a reduced real-terms budget while the great god 'SkoolsnOspitals' gets all the public's attention/money/noise?
I know which option I would bet on...
Do we batten down the hatches, scrap the Royal Marines and consign amphibiosity to the same dustbin as (proper) MPA, SAR, fleets of tanks and frigates; and just keep a Brigade on high-readiness as the armed-wing of Oxfam and a few Typhoons on H24 to meet the odd Bear H?
...or do we continue to be America's partner in the War on Terror (copyright 2001) once outside Europe and sail into victory on our new CVFs with a glorious fleet of 40 Lightnings (no risk of attrition then!), air-assaulting the next 'sh!t-h0le' country into the 2020s with lashings of Chinooks and Paras, kicking down doors around the world?
..or will we continue to salami-slice everything and do ALL of the above with a reduced real-terms budget while the great god 'SkoolsnOspitals' gets all the public's attention/money/noise?
I know which option I would bet on...
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,892
Received 2,832 Likes
on
1,210 Posts
Ok, If you want to save money, I cannot understand this damned fixation with moving training facilities, since I was in it has been at St Athans, Halton, Cosford, was going back to St Athans but scrubbed no doubt after fortune squandered on planning it.. then onto Lyneham where the runway will be closed and then cancelled again and back to Cosford.. in the mean time the planned rebuild of Lynham is going ahead just for the Army at £121,000,000 cost.... call me old fashioned but I would like to know how long it would take if they all remained where they all were taking into account the extra £121 million budget before an appreciated saving would be seen.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-34243439
Every move must cost a small fortune, build up new camp, put old one into storage.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-34243439
Every move must cost a small fortune, build up new camp, put old one into storage.
The Reds are a luxury we can no longer afford, the problem there is that is the one cut the Joe Public would take on board and would make them think. They are using 30 year old clapped out jets that the rest of the world has moved on from and are no longer really a relevance as a marketing tool for a British aircraft industry that has long since become a bit player.
Probably because of the extra expense teaching soldiers about warships and teaching sailors about digging and bayonets.
If you take the RAF College Cranwell as an example you will find it has already combined with RAF officer and aircrew selection (for all services, in the latter case), flying training units, CFS, NCO Aircrew Training, Ascent (PFI), engineering training, logistics training and assorted others with a heavy dose of contractor support. As such it is pretty hard to find any savings, only additional expense if a fraction of it joined a one trick pony outfit such as Sandhurst.
If you take the RAF College Cranwell as an example you will find it has already combined with RAF officer and aircrew selection (for all services, in the latter case), flying training units, CFS, NCO Aircrew Training, Ascent (PFI), engineering training, logistics training and assorted others with a heavy dose of contractor support. As such it is pretty hard to find any savings, only additional expense if a fraction of it joined a one trick pony outfit such as Sandhurst.
The sad fact is the only way to save significant amounts of money is to lose capability. We've seen that before when we lost Jaguar, Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and Nimrod. In that respect, the BBMF and even the RAFAT are relatively small pebbles.
However, losing amphibious capability has a strong hint of preparing to fight the last war.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,892
Received 2,832 Likes
on
1,210 Posts
The sad fact is the only way to save significant amounts of money is to lose capability. We've seen that before when we lost Jaguar, Sea Harrier, Harrier GR9 and Nimrod. In that respect, the BBMF and even the RAFAT are relatively small pebbles.
Nutloose,
That bit part player the British aircraft industry that you are knocking just happens to be the second largest aerospace industry on the planet.
Give the tired old cliches and stereotypical nonsense a rest eh?
That bit part player the British aircraft industry that you are knocking just happens to be the second largest aerospace industry on the planet.
Give the tired old cliches and stereotypical nonsense a rest eh?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Nutloose, you clearly missed the secret Infra plan when you were in.
Let us take a simple example. OCU 22X is located on a hangar annexed at RAF Y. The building isn't very good but they have managed for a number of years so clearly the need for change is low. RAF X is losing its resident sqns and offers other advantages so OCU22x is moved but the facilities are not perfect and it ius necessary to refurb and expand the facilities.
Meanwhile back at RAF X . . . you get the drift?
Let us take a simple example. OCU 22X is located on a hangar annexed at RAF Y. The building isn't very good but they have managed for a number of years so clearly the need for change is low. RAF X is losing its resident sqns and offers other advantages so OCU22x is moved but the facilities are not perfect and it ius necessary to refurb and expand the facilities.
Meanwhile back at RAF X . . . you get the drift?
unless you bring forward mid life updates etc
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 32,892
Received 2,832 Likes
on
1,210 Posts
Name a current modern military aircraft we produce in house, name an airliner we produce in house.. We might be the second biggest, but we have become a parts supplier, nothing more, nothing less, and it's going to get worse, when we buy in the all singing all dancing F35 from abroad, remember that, the aircraft we are a prime development financier of, but down the pecking order and below the likes of Israel when it comes to receiving them. Ohhh and before I forget, we might then have the all singing all dancing F-35 but we will be reliant on the most unstable unreliable country in NATO who are cosying up to our main threat to provide and maintain the engines for the fleet, namely Turkey.
And you think we are still the all singing all dancing 2nd aerospace country in the world.... Long since gone and reliance on the products of the likes of the USA simply drives a stake through both our capability and our independence.
If you want to look at a country that has the capability and foresight to still knock out there own military fighters I suggest you learn Swedish.
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 8th Feb 2018 at 09:14.
So a suggestion of two options
1. We declare neutrality, we go down the Swiss model and enough to protect ourselves but be all things to all men. Instead wave the big stick through financial means and having all the cash or secrets
2. We carry on investing, doing everything we do and in fact more. We find by leaving a protection tax on the eu. If they want an independent nuclear deterrent or the Germans want to keep their hands clean for fear of returning to the old ways. Fine we will do it but it’s going to cost.
1. We declare neutrality, we go down the Swiss model and enough to protect ourselves but be all things to all men. Instead wave the big stick through financial means and having all the cash or secrets
2. We carry on investing, doing everything we do and in fact more. We find by leaving a protection tax on the eu. If they want an independent nuclear deterrent or the Germans want to keep their hands clean for fear of returning to the old ways. Fine we will do it but it’s going to cost.
In fact, in terms of aerospace export earnings, UK is now 4th in the world - behind both France and Germany - and further behind Germany than any other country in the Top 5 to 15 is behind the UK !
2016 figures:
2016 figures:
- United States: US$134.6 billion (41% of total aerospace exports)
- France: $53.4 billion (16.2%)
- Germany: $44.6 billion (13.6%)
- United Kingdom: $21 billion (6.4%)
- Canada: $10.3 billion (3.1%)
- Singapore: $6.7 billion (2%)
- Japan: $5.1 billion (1.6%)
- Spain: $5.1 billion (1.5%)
- Italy: $4.9 billion (1.5%)
- Brazil: $4.8 billion (1.5%)
- Ireland: $4.1 billion (1.2%)
- China: $3.4 billion (1%)
- India: $3 billion (0.9%)
- Netherlands: $2.6 billion (0.8%)
- Israel: $2.4 billion (0.7%)