RAF Regiment
Sorry Leon, but that is not the point. put her in with one of the top 3 male professionals and see what happens, especially if, by chance, it went beyond 3 sets.
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So you've trawled hundreds of years to find a few examples, well done. Now back to the "average" grunt. As long as the standards are not undermined, then fine. But the realists on here know that it's going to be a bumpy road, I mentioned the USMC earlier, but the Facebook pages controversy of a few months ago proves that there are/will be challenges. We can all say/tow the party line and what's correct for the day. MAYBE somebody saying the uncomfortable elephant in the room type point should be regarded with more respect. Emporers new clothes?
Being cynical, I feel that perhaps this topic is being driven less on 'equal opportunities' grounds than on an attempt to mitigate recruiting shortfall.
Equal opportunities? I refer to Monty Python's Life of Brian:
Equal opportunities? I refer to Monty Python's Life of Brian:
A scenario to ponder.
Assume that you are male.
You are told that you will have to fight for your life, as in a phone-box, and can choose the gender of your opponent.
Which is it to be?
Assume that you are male.
You are told that you will have to fight for your life, as in a phone-box, and can choose the gender of your opponent.
Which is it to be?
The UK has and still does recruit women into special forces within SRR, previously 14 Int Company. This started in the days of the overt conflict in Northern Ireland.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Air pig, this is of course horses for courses. If you insist on everyone meeting a common standard you will miss those that would excel in a specialist role but otherwise fail in a less relevant aspect.
Miss PN2 only 'just' qualified in marksman ship. She probably passed as the instructor recognised that a female sqn ldr supplier was unlikely to be given a gun.
Miss PN2 only 'just' qualified in marksman ship. She probably passed as the instructor recognised that a female sqn ldr supplier was unlikely to be given a gun.
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Big Game Hunting.
Thanks, Bryan 48nav (#41), for springing to my defence. Yet I would not plead in aid my grey hairs.
Rotate Too Late (#42), has put his finger on the 'root of the matter'(Churchill's phrase), IMHO:
..."MAYBE somebody saying the uncomfortable elephant in the room type point should be regarded with more respect"...
It is not the only "Elephant" (aka "Sacred Cow") from which we sedulously avert our gaze. The prize specimen is the "Free at the point of Delivery" mantra of the NHS. Setting aside the fact that: "there is no such thing as a "free lunch"
(someone always has to pay):
When Aneuran Bevan set up the NHS in 1948 this was a noble aspiration indeed. It was thought that the health of the nation would so improve that the demand for NHS services would diminsh. As we know, the exact opposite has taken place, to the extent that all the revenues of the land could be devoted to the NHS - and it would still be underfunded - because the demand for its services is (potentially) infinite. The NHS, as at present constituted, is a bottomless pit.
The only way to "square this circle" is to take an axe to the Sacred Cow. "When I were a lad", a visit to the Doctor cost 5/-. If he came out to you, it was 7/6. The system worked only because the doctors "tempered the wind to the shorn lamb", those patients well able to pay subsidising those who couldn't. My father had a serious abdominal operation. "Mr "X" does one of these for 100 guineas" , said the Ward Sister, "and then he does three more for nothing"....
5/- then amounted to three hour's work by a man on average wage. A comparable sum today would be £40. I do not suggest a draconian figure anything like that - but surely, excluding those living on benefits, nobody should object to (say) £10. At one bound, the NHS would be solvent - and there would be a marked reduction in the attendances at surgeries and A&Es.
All this is widely off-topic and off-Thread. But if we slay one Sacred Cow, how about the one at the heart of our discussion ? Men and women are different (vive la différence !) There are some things men are better at (hand-to-hand combat against another man for a start). Women are supremely better at giving birth. It just is so. Accept it.
Danny.
Rotate Too Late (#42), has put his finger on the 'root of the matter'(Churchill's phrase), IMHO:
..."MAYBE somebody saying the uncomfortable elephant in the room type point should be regarded with more respect"...
It is not the only "Elephant" (aka "Sacred Cow") from which we sedulously avert our gaze. The prize specimen is the "Free at the point of Delivery" mantra of the NHS. Setting aside the fact that: "there is no such thing as a "free lunch"
(someone always has to pay):
When Aneuran Bevan set up the NHS in 1948 this was a noble aspiration indeed. It was thought that the health of the nation would so improve that the demand for NHS services would diminsh. As we know, the exact opposite has taken place, to the extent that all the revenues of the land could be devoted to the NHS - and it would still be underfunded - because the demand for its services is (potentially) infinite. The NHS, as at present constituted, is a bottomless pit.
The only way to "square this circle" is to take an axe to the Sacred Cow. "When I were a lad", a visit to the Doctor cost 5/-. If he came out to you, it was 7/6. The system worked only because the doctors "tempered the wind to the shorn lamb", those patients well able to pay subsidising those who couldn't. My father had a serious abdominal operation. "Mr "X" does one of these for 100 guineas" , said the Ward Sister, "and then he does three more for nothing"....
5/- then amounted to three hour's work by a man on average wage. A comparable sum today would be £40. I do not suggest a draconian figure anything like that - but surely, excluding those living on benefits, nobody should object to (say) £10. At one bound, the NHS would be solvent - and there would be a marked reduction in the attendances at surgeries and A&Es.
All this is widely off-topic and off-Thread. But if we slay one Sacred Cow, how about the one at the heart of our discussion ? Men and women are different (vive la différence !) There are some things men are better at (hand-to-hand combat against another man for a start). Women are supremely better at giving birth. It just is so. Accept it.
Danny.
Does that include the CO of 12 Squadron and other lady aircrew or the female members of the MERT, ground medics logestics crews etc who have given such service.
He did indeed, but who is to say that there were not female RAOC officers leading logistic trains, what if there was an attachment to an army unit?
Should not all be up to the standard without those assesing them prejudging what or where they may be posted or deployed, such an attitude may put others at risk.
If a woman comes up to the standard required, what is the problem?
At this point I'm leaaving this thread.
Should not all be up to the standard without those assesing them prejudging what or where they may be posted or deployed, such an attitude may put others at risk.
If a woman comes up to the standard required, what is the problem?
At this point I'm leaaving this thread.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
The forces can't get enough men to join, 50% of the workforce now is female. Accept it - and plan accordingly.
In days of old knights wielded broadswords, now the majority wield guns, females as prominently as males. They can't carry as much as men, but do you just have less troops or a proportion who can carry less but increase mechanisation and reduce weight by new materials?
Facts on the ground have a way of trumping theories on paper.
In days of old knights wielded broadswords, now the majority wield guns, females as prominently as males. They can't carry as much as men, but do you just have less troops or a proportion who can carry less but increase mechanisation and reduce weight by new materials?
Facts on the ground have a way of trumping theories on paper.
Oberon - I tell you what I'll pitch your 3 best male gymnasts against the 3 best female gymnasts on the beam and the floor exercises and see how they do. The fact is Venus Williams and any female tennis professional could probably wipe the floor with 99% of the male population in a game. Pitching your 3 best males from the world against Ms Williams just shows how blinkered you are.
Brian48Nav - no respect for disrespectful attitudes to female rights and misogyny regardless of age. Thank goodness that this is slowly becoming a practice reserved for the very small minority.
There should be no role that is not open to any gender, age, religion or race - it must be competency based but if you make the grade then you should be allowed to do it. Those that believe there are "woman's" and "man's" roles need to grow up and leave behind the despicable legacy of the patriarchy within the Abrahamic religions. Some of the views on here appear to be as a direct result of this.
I can recall the dreadfull whohaa after we got the first females flying military aircraft and then that they should only fly the supporting missions on multi-engine aircraft. Then they were allowed rotary and finally fast jet. One of the best fighter pilots I ever flew with on a squadron was a woman and then I have had the pleasure to know a female helicopter pilot with a DFC. Having females in the Regt will be just fine as long as we weed out the unfair discriminators and the bullies. I would be proud to serve alongside any woman that is capable of doing their job - as long as we don't witness positive discrimination in the female's favour then everything will be just fine.
LJ
Brian48Nav - no respect for disrespectful attitudes to female rights and misogyny regardless of age. Thank goodness that this is slowly becoming a practice reserved for the very small minority.
There should be no role that is not open to any gender, age, religion or race - it must be competency based but if you make the grade then you should be allowed to do it. Those that believe there are "woman's" and "man's" roles need to grow up and leave behind the despicable legacy of the patriarchy within the Abrahamic religions. Some of the views on here appear to be as a direct result of this.
I can recall the dreadfull whohaa after we got the first females flying military aircraft and then that they should only fly the supporting missions on multi-engine aircraft. Then they were allowed rotary and finally fast jet. One of the best fighter pilots I ever flew with on a squadron was a woman and then I have had the pleasure to know a female helicopter pilot with a DFC. Having females in the Regt will be just fine as long as we weed out the unfair discriminators and the bullies. I would be proud to serve alongside any woman that is capable of doing their job - as long as we don't witness positive discrimination in the female's favour then everything will be just fine.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 15th Jul 2017 at 19:15.
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Leon Jabachjabicz, Sir, thank you. Your comments represent the RAF of today, along with its values and people that I'm proud to be a part of. I can concur that the girls who work down the back of our helicopters today are ready for anything and anyone. When it comes to being ready to give better than you're getting, I'd say some of them are a match for some of our Rocks. The girls who don't want to stick a bayonet into a rib cage won't apply, simples.
YellowTom - I wholeheartedly agree with you as well. I actually like the heritage of the old RAF as well but it did exist during a time where society sexually discriminated far more than today. 
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Danny, thank you. Her med cat was downgraded due to an obstetric problem. This meant she was on a restricted med cat but still did a productive tour in Kandahar and several productive tours following. She has just retired at her 38 point despite to prospective promotion.
My point is at 100% man equivalent fitness may be a laudable aim but would deny many able individual.
My point is at 100% man equivalent fitness may be a laudable aim but would deny many able individual.
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I leave it at this.
Genuinely, the best of luck to you. We've mentioned the strides made so far, and they are to be lauded, no doubt. But just because it's a resounding success in some quarters, doesn't mean it follows in others...
By chasing the holy grail of equality, if you undermine the operational effectiveness of the unit, you are a failure for not speaking up. And I warn you, the stakes may be higher than you ever thought possible.
Good luck again.
Genuinely, the best of luck to you. We've mentioned the strides made so far, and they are to be lauded, no doubt. But just because it's a resounding success in some quarters, doesn't mean it follows in others...
By chasing the holy grail of equality, if you undermine the operational effectiveness of the unit, you are a failure for not speaking up. And I warn you, the stakes may be higher than you ever thought possible.
Good luck again.