RAF Regiment
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Thread Starter
Armed Forces made up of SAS and SBS would be incredible - but obviously impossible for many practice reasons. Armed forces made up of alpha males would be great, but obviously impossible for precticle reasons. Armed forces made of male only troops would be preferable for many reasons, but is impossible for many reasons.
The past is the past, conscription is gone and will not return, numbers are dwindling because recruitments cannot reach targets by only targeting 50% of the work force.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....
The past is the past, conscription is gone and will not return, numbers are dwindling because recruitments cannot reach targets by only targeting 50% of the work force.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.....
Crikey, it's not a "holy grail" it's a basic human right! I don't understand what many of you are so afraid of. If they achieve the standard then regardless of gender, race, age or religion if they want to serve then let them serve. However just why they would want to serve some of the misogynist muppets that have revealed themselves on this forum is beyond me though...
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I worked with an Israeli Major for a year. He'd fought in both the Six Day and Yom Kippur shemozzles. On the Sinai front in both of those gigs.
In the first one they'd had women serving as front line infantry, but it was a bit of a disaster. No problem with their fitness and ability to fight. The problem was that there was a very deeply ingrained cultural thing which led the male soldiers to takes crazy risks to render aid and rescue to a fallen femme soldier which they would not have done so unthinkingly with a male casualty.
The Egyptians soon learned to plink the female soldiers first, knowing that they could pick off any number of IDF soldiers coming to her assistance. The IDF brass have learned the lesson and although they still have female infantry, the plan is no longer to place them right on the front line in quite such a literal way.
With the Regiment's prime role being to guard airbases, which tend to be behind the front line to some extent, perhaps this is not quite the same consideration.
In the first one they'd had women serving as front line infantry, but it was a bit of a disaster. No problem with their fitness and ability to fight. The problem was that there was a very deeply ingrained cultural thing which led the male soldiers to takes crazy risks to render aid and rescue to a fallen femme soldier which they would not have done so unthinkingly with a male casualty.
The Egyptians soon learned to plink the female soldiers first, knowing that they could pick off any number of IDF soldiers coming to her assistance. The IDF brass have learned the lesson and although they still have female infantry, the plan is no longer to place them right on the front line in quite such a literal way.
With the Regiment's prime role being to guard airbases, which tend to be behind the front line to some extent, perhaps this is not quite the same consideration.
Regt
Leon, thanks for calling us all misogynist Muppets. I've served in the RAF Regt for 30 years and there's not one person I know who thinks this is a good idea. Oh well, what could we possibly know.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
My point, to approach it from a different way, is that a common entrance standard is highly desirable but the fitness standard, or any other measure, should be dependent and not universal and gender specific.
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There are two entirely separate issues in debate here which are being conflated by a number of posters.
The first issue is whether employment should be based on merit/competence rather than gender or other characteristics. The 21st Century answer of course is that, in terms of employment, gender should have no role to play. Other arms and services operate role specific absolute fitness standards (ie carry weight x over distance y in under time z) irrespective of age or gender, why would the RAF Regiment be any different?
The second issue is one of cultural acceptance, is UK civil and military culture ready to accept female combat casualties? The answer again is yes, we have done so for many years, the difference of course is that now they will now potentially become casualties as a consequence of females being employed on roles requiring them to close with and kill the enemy. If we accept the requirement to provide non-gender biased life opportunities we must accept that the same opportunities will arise in terms of dying as well.
I have operated alongside female service personnel is dismounted close combat on operations and I can categorically state the only thing that mattered was their ability as a rifleman (in all aspects of the role), gender never came in to it. Properly trained to the task and given a fair chance (which does not mean reducing any role specific requirements) I don't doubt that this will prove to be a complete non-issue in military terms, but may cause ill-informed and over-emotive faux outrage in the tabloids.
Good luck to all who choose to go down this path.
MB
The first issue is whether employment should be based on merit/competence rather than gender or other characteristics. The 21st Century answer of course is that, in terms of employment, gender should have no role to play. Other arms and services operate role specific absolute fitness standards (ie carry weight x over distance y in under time z) irrespective of age or gender, why would the RAF Regiment be any different?
The second issue is one of cultural acceptance, is UK civil and military culture ready to accept female combat casualties? The answer again is yes, we have done so for many years, the difference of course is that now they will now potentially become casualties as a consequence of females being employed on roles requiring them to close with and kill the enemy. If we accept the requirement to provide non-gender biased life opportunities we must accept that the same opportunities will arise in terms of dying as well.
I have operated alongside female service personnel is dismounted close combat on operations and I can categorically state the only thing that mattered was their ability as a rifleman (in all aspects of the role), gender never came in to it. Properly trained to the task and given a fair chance (which does not mean reducing any role specific requirements) I don't doubt that this will prove to be a complete non-issue in military terms, but may cause ill-informed and over-emotive faux outrage in the tabloids.
Good luck to all who choose to go down this path.
MB
Last edited by Mahogany_Bomber; 16th Jul 2017 at 10:59.
LJ
I have no interest at all in whether the 'Rockapes' are 100% men, 100% women or a mixture. What does concern me is your 'Holier than thou' attitude, where anyone who disagrees with your point of view has to 'grow up' - who made you the arbiter of what people can say? This is all very reminiscent of Orwell's 1984.
In the news this morning there is a report re concerns that MPs have over the attacks they have been subject to on social media during the course of the election campaign. You are doing the very same thing to posters here - I have had the privilege of reading hundreds of Danny's posts and I have never seen a hint of misogyny.
You would do well to remember the saying, ' I disagree with what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it'.
Brian Wildey
In the news this morning there is a report re concerns that MPs have over the attacks they have been subject to on social media during the course of the election campaign. You are doing the very same thing to posters here - I have had the privilege of reading hundreds of Danny's posts and I have never seen a hint of misogyny.
You would do well to remember the saying, ' I disagree with what you are saying, but will defend to the death your right to say it'.
Brian Wildey
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The attacks on MPs you mention have been death threats, rape threats, racist abuse and bigotry. To suggest that LJ has been guilty of that is rather disingenuous.
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Top 50 West. You are correct and our ability to fight and win wars will only be enhanced by opening up the pool from which we recruit to all of the population, regardless of gender.
MB
MB
Like the majority here I am all for the recruitment from 100% of the population but only on the grounds that standards are absolute. PN I am sure that Miss PN did a good job in Kandahar but the idea that someone in her position is unlikely to be given a gun is off track in my book. The Taliban attack on Bastion is a good example. As for the joke of the fitness test the less said the better.
Last edited by vascodegama; 16th Jul 2017 at 13:03.
Brian
I don't really care if he is the future King of England! You cannot discriminate on the grounds of gender even if you have offered your very best to the country in service; not a valid exemption. It is against the Law to discriminate on grounds of gender as stated in the Equality Act 2010 and all of the Acts that preceded it.
Not wanting to single out one particular individual for the horrific comments I've read on here, I find it staggering that 99 years after we gave women over 30 the vote in the UK we are still having to support them against this type of discrimination. Any of you with working wives and daughters will realise that we still have some way to go yet in certain areas - some of the comments on this forum serve to prove this. Misogyny is still alive and well in small pockets of mainly older privileged males in the UK - my wife who earns a six-figure salary in business has to put up with it on a daily basis. So it's not "holier than thou" it's just wrong legally, morally and as a gentleman/officer I find it abhorrent to find attitudes to this recent announcement by CAS and the SofS still exist in our society.
As for "freedom of speech" - again, it is not acceptable to be derogatory about gender, just as it isn't for sexuality, disability or race. Sorry, thems the rules!!
Anyway, great post Mahogany Bomber.
LJ
I find his attitude to WW2 hero Danny appalling.
Not wanting to single out one particular individual for the horrific comments I've read on here, I find it staggering that 99 years after we gave women over 30 the vote in the UK we are still having to support them against this type of discrimination. Any of you with working wives and daughters will realise that we still have some way to go yet in certain areas - some of the comments on this forum serve to prove this. Misogyny is still alive and well in small pockets of mainly older privileged males in the UK - my wife who earns a six-figure salary in business has to put up with it on a daily basis. So it's not "holier than thou" it's just wrong legally, morally and as a gentleman/officer I find it abhorrent to find attitudes to this recent announcement by CAS and the SofS still exist in our society.
As for "freedom of speech" - again, it is not acceptable to be derogatory about gender, just as it isn't for sexuality, disability or race. Sorry, thems the rules!!
Anyway, great post Mahogany Bomber.
LJ
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Not a fan of other people's views but not above a bit of casual racism eh jet boy?
"I don't hate them all, I just dislike those that don't want to integrate with UK society, customs and culture and want to bring little-Mungostan with them and set it up front and centre. I have some very good mates who's parents do not hail from the UK - guess what? They have integrated fully with the customs and culture of this country; including wearing a poppy and not torching a young lad from one of the UK's biggest youth organisations!
I'm pretty sure that if I conducted an attrocity of this magnitude in another country where this type of radical behaviour has 'sprung' from (see what I did there?), then I suspect at the very least I would be enjoying a stretch 'Midnight Express' stylee."
LJ
"I don't hate them all, I just dislike those that don't want to integrate with UK society, customs and culture and want to bring little-Mungostan with them and set it up front and centre. I have some very good mates who's parents do not hail from the UK - guess what? They have integrated fully with the customs and culture of this country; including wearing a poppy and not torching a young lad from one of the UK's biggest youth organisations!
I'm pretty sure that if I conducted an attrocity of this magnitude in another country where this type of radical behaviour has 'sprung' from (see what I did there?), then I suspect at the very least I would be enjoying a stretch 'Midnight Express' stylee."
LJ
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Vasco, while a proper combat evaluation in both ability and fitness would have seen her screened from posting, and we would have been delighted, I don't think she would have wanted to avoid it on those grounds.
I suspect many others would have tried to wriggle out of such a posting. I accepted my OOA posting with good grace before a Christmas and was 100% pissed off when I discovered that SLOPS had refused to accept a fighter controller and a pilot sent at short notice on a promise of a six week det rather than six months. In the event a fighter controller would have been ideal. Gripe over.
I suspect many others would have tried to wriggle out of such a posting. I accepted my OOA posting with good grace before a Christmas and was 100% pissed off when I discovered that SLOPS had refused to accept a fighter controller and a pilot sent at short notice on a promise of a six week det rather than six months. In the event a fighter controller would have been ideal. Gripe over.
Leon
This could go on to the cows come home! Once again, re-read Danny's comments and there is nothing that could be considered misogynist. Yet you have told him to grow up and called him and others a muppet.
What sort of gentleman and officer are you?
As a PS - we could put this whole thing to bed easily. If the Moderators think that any post here has contravened the Equality Act then it is up to them to delete them or, as you believe that to be the case, you have the option to flag up those posts.
Back to my early evening beer - enjoy your tipple too!
What sort of gentleman and officer are you?
As a PS - we could put this whole thing to bed easily. If the Moderators think that any post here has contravened the Equality Act then it is up to them to delete them or, as you believe that to be the case, you have the option to flag up those posts.
Back to my early evening beer - enjoy your tipple too!
Last edited by Brian 48nav; 16th Jul 2017 at 17:43. Reason: Addition