RAF Regiment

[air pig]

'There have been some incredible stories of women under fire in Iraq and Afghanistan with medals for gallantry to back up their actions. Please keep your minds open or your sneering mysogeny to yourself.'

The ones I can think of have been combat medics putting their lives at risk in the best traditions of the medical services for their teams.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...r-bravery.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...e-courage.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...n-bravery.html

If they were men they'd be described as having big brass ones, just don't know how you would describe the receipients here.

[Al R]

I think some of us are missing the point. The issue is not one of doubting efficacy of the servicewoman. Rather, would I, as a section commander, be skewed in my combat appreciation and as a consequence, not commit a female to the fray? Would I, if captured, be placed under needless self induced pressure if a female comrade was about to be gang raped in front of me?

'Hey, sort yourself out, dinosaur bloke!'.

Maybe. Or maybe, it's not my fault, it's not anyone's fault, it's simply the product of tens of thousands of years of evolution. Will be get through it? Yes, our professionalism and conditioning will see us prevail. Does some slavishly adherence to an abstract political concept make us a better society, though? Thankfully, I'm quickly getting beyond the point of giving a damn.

[cheekychimp]

Sorry, meant to add. The female Aircrew who find themselves toe to toe and the other women who have rightfully received gallantry awards were all done under self-defence. Taking the fight to the enemy and assaulting fire trenches etc are a totally different thing.

[The Oberon]

I always come back to the sports analogy. When I see no gender segregation in all sports at all levels then cross gender infantry is OK, until then, forget it.

Mind you a mixed gender Calcutta Cup match at Twickenham might be a good watch.

[tescoapp]

Well some Cops have had them for years.

Now only from personal experience from the lady's I still know from my time in green.

The Girlies who didn't get involved with humping Bergan's are generally normal. No real lasting issues apart from a rather unlady like vocab and a pretty brutal method of dealing with idiots.

Now the ones that got involved with the humping and dumping running around with weight are to a woman, broken. Thier bones, cartilage tendons and ligaments are all stuffed. One had to get a knee replaced at 35 and another is in the process of getting hip replacements at 43. I also believe one of the others who I am not in contact with is now in a wheel chair after some vertebrae collapsed. Not saying this doesn't happen to the blokes as well but the numbers of the full effort ladys who are now broken is spectacularly high.

On the subject of sticking a knife/bayonet in someone. Its really not an issue these days and hasn't been for some 20 odd years. Your just as likely to get stabbed by a gang of girls in Croydon as you are a gang of boys.

[Basil]

Seems to me that those in favour are those writing the rude riposts.
Well here's what I think:
I do not think women should be in any sort of infantry operation except as special operators. Women do not compete against men in sports - or should we have mixed weight-lifting?
We are giving in to the very, very few PC activists with an axe to grind.

[Rotate too late]

ive no doubt about a woman being able to pull a trigger/stab etc, the US Marines I worked with seemed happy enough with it.
it's the getting there that worries me, the enemy won't give a **** about non gender specific issues, so, as long as the standard is met......fine.
Female RAF recruits paid compensation for marching injuries - BBC News
I agree that it is more aimed at undoing the appalling recruitment situation rather than a huge leap forward in other ways.

[Wrathmonk]

AlR

Given that some of our foe in recent conflicts don't (allegedly )seem to be too fussy which side they bat on are you saying that, if captured, you don't feel you would be placed under needless self induced pressure if a male comrade was about to be gang raped in front of you?

[Top West 50]

My point was that Fallon said that "a diverse force was a more operationally effective force." That is, I assume, a mixed force of men, women and others will be more operationally effective than the existing all- male composition. He provided no evidence for this. And if he he is right, what is the optimum mix of diverse components?

[Pontius Navigator]

levels of fitness amongst some of the female and male cadre is poor and there are way too many with a sick-chit and "excused from games

A high standard of combat effective fitness for all is a laudable aim. It means that anyone properly qualified can be posted to any appropriate role - a manning dream.

However many individuals are capable of outstanding work in one role but physically unsuited to most other role related jobs. It is right that that individual is dismissed the service for failing a fitness test?

I have in mind a particularly large computer programmer in a particularly rare computer language. He was superb at his job but needed his own high capacity swivel seat.

Or first rate navs and pilots on the V-Force who could fulfil their deterrent role but if forced to bail out would have been a lost cause. What is better an average all rounder or a role star?

[Jayand]

Worked with three women on tornado Sqns years ago who couldn't lift the aircraft ladder up to and onto the cockpit. They couldn't be put together on a servicing team as the job wouldn't be done with them. Equality is fine as long as it really means that. My fear is that despite assurances standards will be dropped to accommodate the PC brigade.

[teeteringhead]

All this talk of "diversity" reminds me of a conversation I had in Kuwait just before the last Gulf Unpleasantness with my USAF opposite number.

Over a beer (well - alcohol-free Bud!) he was extolling the virtue of a representative fighting force reflecting the ethnicity of the country.

"Indeed", says I "so why doesn't that apply to your Olympic Track and Field Team......"

Which kind of makes my (serious) point. If these "Rockettes" [you heard it here first!] can pass the same tests to the same standards as the chaps - then why not? Best person for the job.

We had the same arguments over female aircrew and even - before that - on arming females. Let's grow up and say if you can do the job then you may do the job, whatever your personal collection of X and/or Y chromosomes may be......

[tmmorris]

Seems to me the rabbit hole we are disappearing down is the collision between:

a. Women who can meet the same standard as men should be allowed to do the job.
b. For physical tasks including infantry soldiering it's harder for women than men to meet that standard, which is discriminatory.

I don't know how we square that circle. b. for example was responsible for paying compensation to women injured in training; and is why crew who couldn't carry ladders were employed when a. should have prevented it.

[Al R]

Originally Posted by Wrathmonk

AlR

Given that some of our foe in recent conflicts don't (allegedly )seem to be too fussy which side they bat on are you saying that, if captured, you don't feel you would be placed under needless self induced pressure if a male comrade was about to be gang raped in front of you?

Simply put, no. And as a factual correction to another post, the bayonet was used often in Afghanistan.

Once again, I have no issues with the technical ability of female soldiers. And I think we'll eventually overcome issues surrounding men being overly protective, or about an enemy being overly exploitative. Because we're good enough, and because conditioning in training against a more liberal societal backdrop will provide context. I just don't think it'll make us a better society. We are becoming artificially and politically inured over the course of decades, to factors which have ingrained themselves naturally over millennia, certainly centuries - and that will come at a cost. Whether or not the cost is excessive, whether or not we'll adapt, whether or not we need to adapt, I no longer care much. It's about the cost of something, versus the benefit of it, not the calibre of the individuals at all. And, let's face it, none of us here can possibly hope to answer that. You reap what you sow and I'll have long withered on the vine by then. For now, fetch me my gin.

[Rotate too late]

I'm sure that one thing can be guaranteed, and that is that the MOD will royally cock up its implementation, which will lead to claims of discrimination.
Even the phrase "Rockettes" is on dodgy ground.
I loved joining the police and finding this all out the hard way!!

[Lima Juliet]

Ok, here is a female Silver Star holder. Got it for hand-to-hand clearing trenches whilst under fire. Military woman receives Silver Star

Here is a lady that you might have heard of famous for her soldiering skills:

Joan of Arc

Here is another closer to home:

Boudicca of the Iceni

For the followers pf Japanese warriors there is Tomoe Gozen and Nakano Takeko:


Pirate Grace O'Malley took up arms with her crew to fight hand to hand. There was Lozen the female Apache warrior. Chilonis, the Spartan warrior who fought with a rope around her neck so she could commit suicide rather than being taken alive. Arawelo the Somalian queen who hung her opponents by their testes if they survived her battles - her army was all female. Jeanne Hachette who defended her town with an axe against the Duke of Burgundies troops. Finally, as one example of a woman who fought for 13 years as an infanteer in the British Army in the 18th Century there is Christian Davies - veteran of the Battle of Landen, Battle of Schellenberg, Battle of Blenheim and Battle of Ramillies wounded in several by musket shot.

Here is a recent Israeli female Medal of Valor winner: https://israelnewsonline.org/female-.../#.WWoTjLHTWhA

So for pity's sake grow up gentlemen. It is only your "little women" prejudices that are letting you down. As for injuries, I was working on a unit with a Regional Rehabilitation Unit on it - lots of men with torn tendons, knackered knees and fractures - it isn't a totally gender specific issue!

LJ

[dctyke]

Originally Posted by Leon Jabachjabicz

Some appauling attitudes here from some I believe as gentlemen. The CQB and bayonet argument is quite simply laughable and maybe you should all go and dribble into your travel blanket with your cup of cocoa thinking of the good old days of Benny Hill and On the Buses. Have you not considered that the female aircrew may very well find themselves in a toe-to-toe fighting situation when their aircraft spears in and the locals aren't friendly? There have been some incredible stories of women under fire in Iraq and Afghanistan with medals for gallantry to back up their actions. Please keep your minds open or your sneering mysogeny to yourself.

For me it's quite simple, if the females pass the same selection then great. As long as there is no discrimination in the required standards as there is now, then everything is equal. See https://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediaf...2735D95037.doc
However, how can it be right that a peak of fitness female 17-29 has to reach broadly the same standard as a 50-54 male? This cannot be right and if the Chief and the SofS are really truthful about equality then either the female fitness scores need to rise to that of the males or the males need to drop to that of the females. Quite frankly the levels of fitness amongst some of the female and male cadre is poor and there are way too many with a sick-chit and "excused from games". I like to consider myself a feminist but the discrimination between male/female Service fitness requirements does the female's cause of equality no good whatsoever.

LJ

Lower ranks have been dismissed for failing the test whilst people in positions of power or with bosses with a bit of clout blatantly get away with it. Frequently I've seen people in uniform who were frankly, an embarrassment. I would have put my mortgage on them not passing the test.

[Danny42C]

Rosevidney1 (#12/13),

The Dinosaurs were very successful in their day, and lasted a good long time. Can I join your Dinosaur Club, please ?

And ORAC's (#18) Kipling quote is absolutely 'on the button'.

Five years ago, in my Post #2504 on Page 126 on this Thread, I wrote:

"Having said that, I must admit that for me (and, I rather suspect, for many others, another less creditable reason may have played some part. We can all laugh now at Corporal Jones ("they don't like it up 'em!") and at the bloodcurdling yells of bayonet practice on TV. But the real thing isn't funny at all".

"Can you really envisage what it takes to thrust six inches of cold steel into another human being's guts, twist it so that it doesn't stick (doing still more damage), pull it out and then do it again and again (against all your civilised instincts?) I remember a terrible chapter in "All Quiet on the Western Front", where the German narrator, marooned between the lines in a shellhole with a French poilu, with whom he at first becomes friends, is forced by circumstances to disembowel his new "oppo". (Hitler banned the book in Germany as pacifist propaganda). As usual, Kipling has the words for it":

"I do not love my country's foes / Nor call 'em 'eroes - Still, / Where is the sense in 'ating those / 'Oom you are paid to kill?"

"There was a way out: accept the risk of death for yourself, but volunteer for a technical arm like the Air Force or the Navy, where you will kill clinically, at a distance, where you won't see " the whites of his eyes". Was this a form of cowardice? Probably. All I know is, I take my hat off to the PBI, who had to do the dirty work".

IMHO this applies with even greater force to the female. Is it "Right" to ask a woman (the giver of human life) to do this ? What is the "Right" and the "Wrong" in this case ? I find Kant's "Categorical Imperative" ("what would happen [to the human species] if everybody did this all the time ?") gives the best answer: Clearly, you must protect your breeding stock at all costs, to secure the next generation, whereas the males are expendable.

Of course, this will not meet the approval of the "Annie Oakley" persuasion ("anything you can do, I can do better"). We must agree to differ.

Danny.

[Lima Juliet]

Oh dear Danny:

Of course, this will not meet the approval of the "Annie Oakley" persuasion ("anything you can do, I can do better"). We must agree to differ.

Are you watching Wimbledon at the moment? I don't fancy your chances against Venus Williams in a tennis match old fruit...

LJ

[air pig]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noor_Inayat_Khan

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violette_Szabo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odette_Hallowes

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_Rowden

I leave these four ladies for your contempplation, in that they were as brave as any man in the situation they were in.