German Tornado replacement
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I think there is some discussion on requirements and timing.
Meanwhile they are teaming up with Airbus militairy & Dassault
Dassault might provide a customized Rafale-"G" fleet to bridge the period up to 2035.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN19Y1FJ
Meanwhile they are teaming up with Airbus militairy & Dassault
Dassault might provide a customized Rafale-"G" fleet to bridge the period up to 2035.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN19Y1FJ
Last edited by keesje; 9th Dec 2017 at 19:00. Reason: link
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Dassault might provide a customized Rafale-"G" fleet to bridge the period up to 2035.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN19Y1FJ
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-f...-idUSKBN19Y1FJ
Is the fly included for scale?
engineer(retard) wrote:
Yes, there was indeed. Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters featured a conversation between Defence Minister Strauss and some Lockheed suit:
Is that G for Germany, I think there was a song about that?
Salesman: Hi there. We understand you want to buy some airplanes?
Strauss: That is correct.
Salesman: Well we make airplanes. Good ones. Fast and reliable. Let me just show you this. Look at this picture. This is the F-104. Or the Starfighter as we like to call her. Isn't she beautiful. Yep. She sure is beautiful. Designed by the same man who designed the famous U2.
Strauss: The U2....
Salesman: Yes. It's the finest fair weather fighter on the market. You won't find a better one at the price. Or any price for that matter!
Strauss: Yes, it's very nice. But we need a plane for bombing, strafing, assault and battery, interception, ground support and reconnaissance. Not just a fair weather fighter!
Salesman: Well, that's OK. We can make some modifications. It'll cost a little extra, but it's worth it. Just look at the shape of this beauty. Look, I tell you what we'll do. We'll redesign the plane, right? And instead of just calling it the F-104, we'll call it the F-104G!
Strauss: G?
Salesman: Yeah, eh, Herr Minister - G. G for Germany.
Strauss: G. for Germany, eh....??
Salesman: Yeah, ehm, G for Germany, Herr Minister, you know, it'll go well on the plane, we could do a logo around it and it would look very tasty up in the clouds. We could illuminate it a bit - so, that on dark days you would see it twinkling like a star...
Strauss: G for Germany..? Also G for Gott strafe England. This I am enjoying! G for Germany!!
Strauss: That is correct.
Salesman: Well we make airplanes. Good ones. Fast and reliable. Let me just show you this. Look at this picture. This is the F-104. Or the Starfighter as we like to call her. Isn't she beautiful. Yep. She sure is beautiful. Designed by the same man who designed the famous U2.
Strauss: The U2....
Salesman: Yes. It's the finest fair weather fighter on the market. You won't find a better one at the price. Or any price for that matter!
Strauss: Yes, it's very nice. But we need a plane for bombing, strafing, assault and battery, interception, ground support and reconnaissance. Not just a fair weather fighter!
Salesman: Well, that's OK. We can make some modifications. It'll cost a little extra, but it's worth it. Just look at the shape of this beauty. Look, I tell you what we'll do. We'll redesign the plane, right? And instead of just calling it the F-104, we'll call it the F-104G!
Strauss: G?
Salesman: Yeah, eh, Herr Minister - G. G for Germany.
Strauss: G. for Germany, eh....??
Salesman: Yeah, ehm, G for Germany, Herr Minister, you know, it'll go well on the plane, we could do a logo around it and it would look very tasty up in the clouds. We could illuminate it a bit - so, that on dark days you would see it twinkling like a star...
Strauss: G for Germany..? Also G for Gott strafe England. This I am enjoying! G for Germany!!
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Cheaper than the current and future F-35 seems very highly improbable. In addition, this new aircraft will reportedly have much greater range and endurance than F-35, so must be larger and almost certainly have two engines, making the prospect of it being cheaper essentially impossible.
Growler @ ILA 2018
I can see Boeing working hard in Berlin next week what with the Schwerer Transporthubschrauber replacement of the Luftwaffe CH-53G thus pitching the CH-47F and that the E/A-18G Growler is making an appearence.
https://www.ila-berlin.de/en/aircraf...D=347&combine=
cheers
https://www.ila-berlin.de/en/aircraf...D=347&combine=
cheers
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-ge...-idUKKBN1JG1K1
Germany presses U.S. on potential Eurofighter nuclear role
BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is pressing Washington to clarify whether it would let the Eurofighter Typhoon carry nuclear bombs as part of shared Western defences, an issue that could help decide whether Berlin orders more of the jets, sources familiar with the matter said.
Although not a nuclear power, Germany hosts some U.S. nuclear warheads under NATO’s nuclear-sharing policy and operates a number of Tornado warplanes that can deliver them. New jets will need to be certified by Washington to carry out nuclear missions, a process which can take years. Germany’s defence ministry sent a letter to the U.S. Defense Department in April asking whether certification of the European jets was possible, how much it would cost, and how long it would take, the sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity. Top U.S. Air Force and Pentagon officials are working to respond to the German query, the sources said.
The multi-billion-euro tender to replace Germany’s fleet of 89 Tornados, which are due to retire in the middle of the next decade, pits the Typhoon against several U.S. contenders at a time of strains in transatlantic ties. Executives with Airbus, Lockheed Martin and Boeing are making presentations to the defence ministry this week after submitting reams of information on their respective warplanes in April, with the formal launch of the competition expected later this year, industry sources said.......
Lockheed’s radar-evading F-35 fighter is already slated to have the nuclear capability in the early 2020s, while the Eurofighter would still need certification. Airbus has said it is confident Eurofighter - a joint project with Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo - could be certified by 2025. Sources familiar with the Eurofighter said it was possible to reconfigure the European jet to carry nuclear bombs. But U.S. government sources say that schedule is ambitious given that the F-35 and other aircraft must be certified first. Washington has suggested it could take 7-10 years to certify the Eurofighter for nuclear missions, well beyond the Tornado’s retirement date, according to one German military source.
While urging Europe to boost defence spending, U.S. officials are worried about being shut out of European defence projects after 25 EU governments signed a pact in December to fund, develop and deploy armed forces together.
U.S. officials will also weigh whether the Eurofighter could survive a mission into enemy territory to drop a nuclear bomb without stealth capability at a time when Russia and other potential future enemies have bolstered their sensors and air defences, a second source said. The F-35 is the only aircraft in the running that has such radar-evading capabilities, but Boeing and Eurofighter argue that their aircraft can work in tandem with jamming equipment.
Volker Paltzo, chief executive of Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH, told Reuters this week that he remained confident that Eurofighter could take over the roles of the Tornado, and the company had a strategy to deal with a length certification process. He said the Tornado had been successfully recertified several times after major upgrades.
Germany presses U.S. on potential Eurofighter nuclear role
BERLIN (Reuters) - Germany is pressing Washington to clarify whether it would let the Eurofighter Typhoon carry nuclear bombs as part of shared Western defences, an issue that could help decide whether Berlin orders more of the jets, sources familiar with the matter said.
Although not a nuclear power, Germany hosts some U.S. nuclear warheads under NATO’s nuclear-sharing policy and operates a number of Tornado warplanes that can deliver them. New jets will need to be certified by Washington to carry out nuclear missions, a process which can take years. Germany’s defence ministry sent a letter to the U.S. Defense Department in April asking whether certification of the European jets was possible, how much it would cost, and how long it would take, the sources told Reuters on condition of anonymity. Top U.S. Air Force and Pentagon officials are working to respond to the German query, the sources said.
The multi-billion-euro tender to replace Germany’s fleet of 89 Tornados, which are due to retire in the middle of the next decade, pits the Typhoon against several U.S. contenders at a time of strains in transatlantic ties. Executives with Airbus, Lockheed Martin and Boeing are making presentations to the defence ministry this week after submitting reams of information on their respective warplanes in April, with the formal launch of the competition expected later this year, industry sources said.......
Lockheed’s radar-evading F-35 fighter is already slated to have the nuclear capability in the early 2020s, while the Eurofighter would still need certification. Airbus has said it is confident Eurofighter - a joint project with Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo - could be certified by 2025. Sources familiar with the Eurofighter said it was possible to reconfigure the European jet to carry nuclear bombs. But U.S. government sources say that schedule is ambitious given that the F-35 and other aircraft must be certified first. Washington has suggested it could take 7-10 years to certify the Eurofighter for nuclear missions, well beyond the Tornado’s retirement date, according to one German military source.
While urging Europe to boost defence spending, U.S. officials are worried about being shut out of European defence projects after 25 EU governments signed a pact in December to fund, develop and deploy armed forces together.
U.S. officials will also weigh whether the Eurofighter could survive a mission into enemy territory to drop a nuclear bomb without stealth capability at a time when Russia and other potential future enemies have bolstered their sensors and air defences, a second source said. The F-35 is the only aircraft in the running that has such radar-evading capabilities, but Boeing and Eurofighter argue that their aircraft can work in tandem with jamming equipment.
Volker Paltzo, chief executive of Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH, told Reuters this week that he remained confident that Eurofighter could take over the roles of the Tornado, and the company had a strategy to deal with a length certification process. He said the Tornado had been successfully recertified several times after major upgrades.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-g...-idUSKCN1RM219
Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030
BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.
Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.
The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.
Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.
Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.
The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.
Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030
BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.
Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.
The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.
Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.
Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.
The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.
Who would have thought that being able undertake the tactical nuclear strike role would have been a sticking point for Germany. For the US or the wider NATO capability perhaps, but for Germany?
Quite a few years since the RAF was divested from this role and we produced and controlled our own weapons.
Quite a few years since the RAF was divested from this role and we produced and controlled our own weapons.
I wonder if the US will stand in the way of the German's request, given the ongoing criticism re their defence spend?
Also, the Typhoon appears to morphing into the Skyhawk's bigger brother....
Also, the Typhoon appears to morphing into the Skyhawk's bigger brother....
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Look at the development picture above - the conformal fuel tanks provide a silhouette not dissimilar to a Skyhawk. At least, I presume that was the thought.
7-10 years to certify the Typhoon to carry a nuclear weapon???
I assume 9.95 years to complete the paper work - and a few months to sort out the wiring and do the drop tests.
Sheesh... lucky there's not a war on.
I assume 9.95 years to complete the paper work - and a few months to sort out the wiring and do the drop tests.
Sheesh... lucky there's not a war on.
Seriously tho - I get you have to do lots of testing to sure the damn thing can be plugged into the avionics, or rewire the jet if it doesn't, fly it to make sure it works with the airframe, releases properly and doesn't ping the jet carrying it - do all the training - all the secret squirrel stuff, PAL locks, all the targetting gubbins etc etc etc...
But 7 years?
