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German Tornado replacement

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German Tornado replacement

Old 29th Apr 2020, 00:59
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Originally Posted by Jackonicko
When the Germans needed a replacement for the Lockheed F-104G in the strike role, the US piled on the pressure, aiming to persuade Germany to procure a US-built fighter.

In those far off days, the Germans had enough balls and backbone to procure the aircraft that their own industry was producing, that their own taxpayers and workers were benefiting from and effectively told the US that if they wanted the Luftwaffe to deliver American nuclear weapons, then they, the US, would have to integrate the B61 on their new Tornados.

It was very much in the USA's interest to 'burden share' with its allies, and it integrated B61 on the Tornado without further demur.

The same is true today, and if Germany were to stick to its guns again, the USA would need to decide whether it wanted the Luftwaffe to share in the strike role, and if it does (and it will) then it would have to integrate the B61 on the Luftwaffe's choice of platform. Unless a gutless and supine German Ministry of Defence gives the impression that it can be bullied into selecting the platform that the US wants it to procure....

Design of a nuclear weapons pylon for the Eurofighter is well advanced, thanks to the Belgian campaign, when the Commander of the Belgian Air Component was shown a strike mission in the sim/rig, with production representative software. Nuclear weapons integration on the Super Hornet is not any further advanced. For Speedywheels - the Super Hornet does not have any strike capability.
Instead Belgians picked the F-35 (one of reasons I heard was B61 carriage).

So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then?? Seeming as the only strike a/c embarked is the Super Hornet as there are few Cs left ...(we don’t count the the USMC C and ads when embarked).

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Old 29th Apr 2020, 01:36
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Originally Posted by chopper2004
Instead Belgians picked the F-35 (one of reasons I heard was B61 carriage).

So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then?? Seeming as the only strike a/c embarked is the Super Hornet as there are few Cs left ...(we don’t count the the USMC C and ads when embarked).

Other than a few in various niche roles, looks like the last of the C models are gone.


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Old 29th Apr 2020, 10:10
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Originally Posted by West Coast
If date of the first first flight was a criteria, they wouldn’t have looked at the Hornet either. The F15EX isn’t your daddy’s F15A, same could be said for the Hornet’s Germany will be receiving. I would imagine mission criteria and budgeting drove the decision, not the date the prototype flew.
Thanks. I wouldn't give Super Hornet much of a look if offered a new Strike Eagle variant.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 12:04
  #84 (permalink)  
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On Flight Global:-
Germany outlines Tornado succession plan with Eurofighter and Super Hornet buy

Germany hopes to have fully retired its Panavia Tornado combat aircraft in 2030, with the arrival of a successor aircraft to begin in 2025.

Berlin intends to acquire 45 Boeing Super Hornet-family aircraft for the requirement – 30 F/A-18E/Fs, plus 15 EA-18G Growler electronic warfare aircraft – alongside a further 55 Eurofighters.

An additional 38 examples of the European-built combat type will be purchased to replace the Luftwaffe’s tranche 1 Eurofighters.

While many within Germany had pushed for the acquisition of a single type, certain “special skills” possessed by the Tornado – carriage of US nuclear weapons and electronic warfare equipment – required the split-buy.

“For this purpose, the intention is to purchase 45 F-18 aircraft as a bridge solution for nuclear participation and airborne electronic combat,” says the German defence ministry.

While Germany is with France and Spain jointly developing a future combat air system (FCAS), this will not arrive until the 2040s.

“Therefore, there must be a bridge solution based on models available on the market for the time after the Tornado has become useless and before the FCAS is launched,” it says.

Although unions have argued that the selection of the US-built fighters would harm development activities and industrial capabilities required for the FCAS, this project “should not be endangered”, says the ministry.

“In order to maintain unbroken capability, procurement must start from 2025,” it says. “To be able to replace the Tornado in good time, the procurement process must therefore be started now.”

The Tornado is “no longer economical and no longer safe to operate” beyond 2030, says defence minister Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer.

The defence ministry describes the Super Hornets as “already fully developed and available on the armaments market”, and says initial talks with the US administration have already been held.

Partner nations “France and Great Britain were also included in the planning”, it adds.

Should German defence committee members agree with the acquisition proposals, detailed plans will be presented to the Bundestag “in the next legislative period” in 2022 or “probably” 2023.

“Knowing the established, also parliamentary, processes, we are only at the beginning of a procurement that will take years,” says the defence ministry.
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Old 29th Apr 2020, 23:50
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Originally Posted by chopper2004
So what bucket of sunshine capability do the USN Flattops have, pray then??

None for about the last 27 years - do keep up !

On board for Op DESERT STORM and then gone by 1993.


Last edited by RAFEngO74to09; 30th Apr 2020 at 00:01.
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Old 2nd May 2020, 00:18
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F-14A interest 1970s

What was the a Royal Navy / Royal Marines booklets saying at the back “give your ambitions a chance” and Back in the 70s there was interest in both sides for Luftwaffe F-14A...so that was quite ambitious.

HOME OF M.A.T.S. - The most comprehensive Grumman F-14 Reference Work - by Torsten Anft!

Grumman even made up a patch as part of pitch


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Old 2nd May 2020, 13:49
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Originally Posted by ORAC

Exclusive: Germany sees 8.86 billion euro cost to operate Tornado jets to 2030

BERLIN (Reuters) - The German Defence Ministry estimates it will cost nearly 9 billion euros to keep its aging fleet of 93 Tornado fighter jets flying until 2030, according to a classified document provided to German lawmakers this week. The steep cost forecast includes 5.64 billion euros to maintain the warplanes, which first entered service in 1983, 1.62 billion euros to design replacements for obsolete parts, and 1.58 billion euros to procure them, according to the document, which was viewed by Reuters.

Germany in January decided to pick either the Eurofighter or Boeing Co’s F/A-18E/F fighter jet to replace its Tornado fleet in coming years, dropping Lockheed Martin’s F-35 stealth fighter from a tender worth billions of euros. But neither the F/A-18 nor the Eurofighter, built by Airbus, Britain’s BAE Systems and Italy’s Leonardo SpA, are currently certified to carry U.S. nuclear weapons, as required under Germany’s obligations to NATO. That means Germany will be dependent on its Tornado fleet until it gets new certified planes - a process that could take years.

The estimate came in response to a query by lawmakers from the opposition Free Democrats, who have criticized the ministry for dropping the F-35 - the only aircraft already certified. The ministry did not specify the cost of operating the Tornado fleet until 2035, the current target, despite a specific request to do so from the lawmakers, and said it could adjust the retirement schedule.

Parliamentary sources said the estimate was even higher than expected at around 100 million euros per plane, and it would be cheaper to purchase new aircraft. However Germany’s sluggish defense procurement process, and the complicated process of certifying new aircraft to carry nuclear weapons, meant any new warplanes were unlikely to enter service until 2025 or even later.

Of Germany’s 93 Tornado jets, 85 are operated by the Luftwaffe, or air force, but not all are equipped to carry nuclear weapons. The remaining planes are used for training.

The current Tornado fleet has a combat readiness rate of under 40 percent, according to sources familiar with new ministry data. Germany in past years had published such data, but this year made the readiness of its weapons a classified matter for security reasons.

A lot of their problem is self inflicted. During the RAF Tornado fleet rundown and ultimate withdrawal from service, the German MoD had an opportunity to procure masses of spare parts.

For some reason they chose not to do that in a timely manner and the UK was able to sell much of their inventory to Saudi Arabia to support their similarly sized Tornado fleet.
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