Iran

[jolihokistix]

Talking of whose airpsace, has Iran ever asked for permission to overfly Jordan?

[Less Hair]

Originally Posted by ORAC

No. From first hand testimony of those involved. From the UK they had to fly down through the `Bay of Bidcay and past Portugal and then make a hard left through the `straits of Gibraltar. Same on the return leg.

Still, they were said to have arrived a little early.

[Asturias56]

Originally Posted by ORAC

No. From first hand testimony of those involved. From the UK they had to fly down through the `Bay of Bidcay and past Portugal and then make a hard left through the `straits of Gibraltar. Same on the return leg.

Why not fly across N Spain? Or did they refuse permission as well?

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

Why not fly across N Spain? Or did they refuse permission as well?

I don't recall them granting permission, and at the time they were not in the integrated military command structure, as they later came to be. They only joined NATO in 1982.

For the Libyan raid, the United States was denied overflight rights by France, Spain, and Italy as well as the use of European continental bases, forcing the USAF portion of the operation to be flown around France and Spain, over Portugal and through the Straits of Gibraltar, adding 1,300 miles (2,100 km) each way and requiring multiple aerial refuelings.[17][18] The French refusal alone added 2,800 km.

​​​​​​​For Less Hair: not sure what you are driving at, but perhaps winds aloft were not as forecast?

[Asturias56]

You'd have thought in 4 years after they joined in 1982 someone would have got their phone number................... all they were asking for was a clear flight path?

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by Asturias56

You'd have thought in 4 years after they joined in 1982 someone would have got their phone number................... all they were asking for was a clear flight path?

How much time have you spent inside of NATO, or a NATO HQ?
The Italians also did not agree to the overflight FFS, and they'd been in NATO for decades.
Politics, with a capital P.

[ORAC]

Nobody wanted to get bombed back - and Libya was too close for their liking.

Even we were twitchy as Int forecast a risk of a retaliatory strike at the SBA in Cyprus - I was one of 3 reinforcement controllers flown out to 280SU along with 4 x F4 and 2 VC-10s to Akrotiri for about 4 weeks.

[Lonewolf_50]

IIRC, Libya fired some missiles at Lampedusa Island, which is Italian territory between Sicily and Tunisia.
Yep, just checked, they did.

On April 15, 1986, Libya fired two Scuds at the Lampedusa navigation station, in retaliation for the American bombing of Tripoli and Benghazi, and the alleged death of Colonel Gaddafi's adopted daughter. However, the missiles passed over the island, landed in the sea, and caused no damage.
The NATO base was decommissioned in 1994 and transferred to Italian military control.

[Less Hair]

Originally Posted by Lonewolf_50

For Less Hair: not sure what you are driving at, but perhaps winds aloft were not as forecast?

I just try to connect the dots. IIRC there was an early visible public outcry in France by some senior military person back then about something like a suspected overflight (along the northern Pyrenees) on the way out or similar. This went quiet. Instead many detailed stories about how often they refueled and how long it took were published.
Soon after, the French received much needed heavy cargo C-5 services to Chad and were best friends with the US again.
If you get closely monitored taking off any shortcut on a mission like this would have made a lot of sense - in theory.

[Lonewolf_50]

OK, thanks, the bit with Chad was something we were keeping an eye on during my Med Deployment in 1985-1986.

Spoiler

 

 

(Yes, I was in one of the CVBGs that got to play with the Mad Colonel, on a destroyer or a cruiser, pick which month for which op were in as we crossed his infamous" line of death" in the Gulf of Sidra).

It featured in our daily INT brief because of the Mad Colonel's position in Chad at the time, which tied to concerns of his nuclear ambitions with the attendant worry that he'd be providing nuclear stuff the various terrorist groups whom he gave support and aid to (like the IRA, Red Army Faction, and the usual Arab malcontents).

As to the French

Spoiler

 

 

I got to meet some of the Foreign Legion, 2d Para Regiment, in Calvi back in 1984 during a port visit there. A few of them had already been to Chad for various reasons...



[Lonewolf_50]

Iran and China:

"With Iran, China Holds the Leverage"

On Tuesday, Israeli troops moved into Lebanon, and Iran launched another missile attack toward Israel. Amid escalating tensions last week, Beijing pledged its support for Tehran. In practice, that is unlikely to mean much: Although the two countries are close, China holds almost all the leverage—and Iran has little ability to drag it into a conflict so far from its core interests.

Energy remains the key to the China-Iran relationship. More than 90 percent of Iranian crude oil exports now go to China, purchased mostly by private refineries operating on the black market; however, as of 2019, Iran was only China’s sixth-largest oil supplier. (More recent data is difficult to come by due to relabeling of Iranian oil to avoid sanctions.)

In 2021, the two countries signed a 25-year agreement in which China promised significant investment in Iran, securing that oil supply as well as Tehran’s implicit agreement not to protest the repression of Islam in China or support the persecuted Uyghur minority.

This is an excerpt of a longer/larger article in Foreign Policy magazine. In a larger sense, it's hopeful to see that Iran probably can't drag China into action (that might have a military element attached to it).

[[email protected]]

Originally Posted by ORAC

Nobody wanted to get bombed back - and Libya was too close for their liking.

Even we were twitchy as Int forecast a risk of a retaliatory strike at the SBA in Cyprus - I was one of 3 reinforcement controllers flown out to 280SU along with 4 x F4 and 2 VC-10s to Akrotiri for about 4 weeks.

And that's exactly what happened in Aug 86 during my first OO duty having joined 84 Sqn in June. Two co-ordinated attacks on the airfield, one via the not-crash gate (they rammed it and couldn't get through) from Ladies Mile and one from the ridgeline to the North using a mortar with no baseplate. Neither attack was successful due to the numpties who carried them out - two very minor injuries, both to service wives.

[Asturias56]

". In a larger sense, it's hopeful to see that Iran probably can't drag China into action "

Historically China has only acted when its own, direct , interests were threatened - Korea, Indian, Russian & Vietnam borders. I doubt they'd go to war for the Mad Mullahs - especially when they spend so much time "re-educating" their own Moslem population. Iran, like Russia, is useful as it diverts US attention from China - but fight for them??? When they can get replacement oil easily on world markets??? Probably not

[tartare]

Still no Israeli retaliatory strike - and clearly a lot of high level discussion over what will be hit (if the WAPO is to be believed - military targets only)
One wonders if they are waiting for the recently arrived THAAD to be fully operational - in preparation for the following counter barrage from Iran.

[safetypee]

Conflict stage 7 ……

For info:
https://theconversation.com/israel-i...20of%20control

Stage 7 becoming 8.

[Lonewolf_50]

Originally Posted by safetypee

For info:
https://theconversation.com/israel-i...20of%20control

Stage 7 becoming 8.

Interesting article, thank you.

Analysts believe that both sides – so far at least – are using these limited strikes to signal their unwillingness to escalate. But there is a great deal at stake. Iran will feel its position as a regional power threatened by Israel’s ground campaign in Lebanon. Meanwhile Israel has repeatedly declared that it is fighting for the security of its people. Neither appears to want a wider conflict – and their allies certainly wouldn’t encourage them if they did.

So it’s clear that – up to now at least – neither Israel nor Iran wants to venture any further down the road to “the abyss” as envisaged by Glasl’s nine-stage model.

Check back tomorrow, that last bit may change.

[tartare]

That is an interesting piece - thank you.
Noting this development:
https://www.twz.com/air/b-2-spirits-...-only-they-can

[tartare]

Well - even more developments.

Northern Territory air base used as staging ground for US strike on Houthi weapon stores

Exclusive by defence correspondent Andrew Greene and chief digital political correspondent Jacob Greber

• 
  

27m ago27 minutes agoRAAF Base Tindal, which was used as a staging ground for the strike, in 2013. (Supplied: RAAF-Shane Gidall)

In short:

The Department of Defence has confirmed Australia provided support for the US strikes on underground bunkers used by Yemen's Houthi rebels "through access and overflight for US aircraft in northern Australia".

The US said its strikes were ordered by President Joe Biden to degrade the Houthi weapons stores and send a message to "our adversaries", which includes Iran.

An Australian official said the support was "consistent with our long-standing alliance commitment and close cooperation, demonstrating the interoperability of our militaries".
abc.net.au/news/australian-airbase-used-in-us-strike-on-houthi-stores-yemen/104490578
Link copied
Share articleA remote Northern Territory air base was used as a staging post for this week's United States air strike on underground Houthi weapons stores in Yemen, an attack that has been seen as a warning to Iran.

The Department of Defence confirmed Australia provided support for US strikes on October 17, targeting the Houthi facilities "through access and overflight for US aircraft in northern Australia".

"Australia is committed to supporting the US, and key partners, in disrupting Houthi capabilities used to threaten global trade and the lives of mariners in the Red Sea, a vital international waterway," a defence spokesperson said.

US Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said early on Friday morning (AEDT) that President Joe Biden ordered the strikes to "further degrade the Houthis' capability" to destabilise the region and protect US forces in "one of the world's most critical waterways".

While the US did not mention Iran, American media noted that the B-2 is the only plane capable of hitting deeply buried Iranian nuclear facilities.
US stealth bombers have been targeting Houthi strongholds in Yemen. (Reuters: Hyungwon Kang)
"This was a unique demonstration of the United States' ability to target facilities that our adversaries seek to keep out of reach, no matter how deeply buried underground, hardened or fortified," Mr Austin said.

"The employment of US Air Force B-2 Spirit long-range stealth bombers demonstrate US global strike capabilities to take action against these targets when necessary, anytime, anywhere."

The US has been battling Iran-backed Houthis since shortly after the Hamas terrorist attack on Israel over a year ago.

US Central Command issued a separate statement that it "conducted multiple, precision airstrikes" on storage facilities in Houthi-controlled areas of Yemen, that had "various advanced conventional weapons used to target US and international military and civilian vessels in the Red Sea and the Gulf of Aden".

US forces "targeted the Houthis' hardened underground facilities housing missiles, weapons components, and other munitions," it said.

Support consistent with 'long-standing alliance commitment'

An Australian official said the "support is consistent with our long-standing alliance commitment and close cooperation, demonstrating the interoperability of our militaries".

"Australia will continue to work with partners to deter actions that undermine global and regional security and stability."

In October 2022, Four Corners revealed that the US Air Force would build a "squadron operations facility" at Tindal Air Base, south of Darwin.

Two US B-2 bombers landed at Amberley Air Force Base near Brisbane last month, according to a post on

X from an account calling itself the Whiteman Air Force Base

in Missouri.

Whiteman is where the US Air Force bases its fleet of B-2 bombers, which is believed to number 19 operational warplanes, according to the New York Times.

The newspaper reported on Friday that the B-2 is the only warplane that can carry the largest class of specially built bombs that can punch through soil, rock or concrete before detonating.

It is not known whether the bombs, known as GBU-57 Massive Ordnance Penetrators or MOPs, were used in the mission.

[Lonewolf_50]

Why was it necessary to reveal that? (Did the Aussies ask for credit?)

[tartare]

Who knows.
But I doubt the RAAF would have done so without a nod from the USAF - right?
As someone said earlier, for deterrence to be effective it needs to be publicised (to a degree, sensibly, taking into account Operational Security).
Quite happy to be corrected as a civilian, but I would have thought any operational security implications here are reasonably limited?
So in this case - what might be the message that is being sent - and to whom?
In the case of the USAF, its message might be "...we have friends who will not hesitate to actively assist us and are doing so, despite any overt or veiled threats to them..." and I'd suggest it's a message as much to China as anyone.
I would suggest flying your most valuable strategic bomber on the way to an actual real mission through a staging point like Tindal is a big message to send.