Paris Attacked!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Clearly you feel strongly that we should be bombing Syria, ORAC
The Americans, Russians and French seem more than capable and the additional effort we could supply seems nugatory.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Being slightly cynical, I doubt wether they were given any options, and the grenades may have been delivered. More the Russians doing some house cleaning and sealing their southern border.
IIRC the area has been a regular supply and transit route for those wishing to join any of the various islamic military groups. I think they'll now find the door hermetically sealed.....
Sky News: IS-Linked Militants 'Neutralised' In Russia
Russia's counter-terrorism agency reportedly kills 11 extremists as Moscow calls for greater co-operation in the fight against IS.
11:56, UK, Sunday 22 November 2015
Eleven militants who had sworn allegiance to Islamic State have been "neutralised" in a special operation in a southern Russian republic, according to reports.
The operation took place in a wooded area outside the city of Nalchik in the Kabardino-Balkaria region, which lies within Russia's volatile North Caucuses region, the news agency AFP reported, citing the TASS news agency.
The fighters opened fire on law enforcement officials and threw grenades after they were cornered, TASS quoted a statement from Russia's national anti-terrorism committee as saying.
"They were all members of armed groups that had sworn allegiance to the international terrorist organisation ISIL," the committee said.
Islamists in the predominately Muslim North Caucuses have been flocking to join Islamic State since it declared a wilayaat, or province, in the region.......
IIRC the area has been a regular supply and transit route for those wishing to join any of the various islamic military groups. I think they'll now find the door hermetically sealed.....
Sky News: IS-Linked Militants 'Neutralised' In Russia
Russia's counter-terrorism agency reportedly kills 11 extremists as Moscow calls for greater co-operation in the fight against IS.
11:56, UK, Sunday 22 November 2015
Eleven militants who had sworn allegiance to Islamic State have been "neutralised" in a special operation in a southern Russian republic, according to reports.
The operation took place in a wooded area outside the city of Nalchik in the Kabardino-Balkaria region, which lies within Russia's volatile North Caucuses region, the news agency AFP reported, citing the TASS news agency.
The fighters opened fire on law enforcement officials and threw grenades after they were cornered, TASS quoted a statement from Russia's national anti-terrorism committee as saying.
"They were all members of armed groups that had sworn allegiance to the international terrorist organisation ISIL," the committee said.
Islamists in the predominately Muslim North Caucuses have been flocking to join Islamic State since it declared a wilayaat, or province, in the region.......
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"Agnostic on the subject.." Well put ORAC; that exactly expresses my feelings too, in which case I was wrong to direct my question personally to you. But it would be nice to hear from the "lets bomb" lobby about what exactly they'd bomb and how it would lead to victory. There's just a hint that some here just want to hear a lot of bangs going off!
How to defeat IsIs
Answers have divided roughly in to 2 distinct camps.
Firstly those (experts) who support a military solution and secondly those (experts) who say that this will play in to the hands of the baddies and suggest a long term hearts and minds campaign.
The second solution,whilst of laudable intent will just take too long. How many more atrocities could the West take without actually be seen to do something?
My solution is to do both at the same time and both with maximum effort.
Militarily assemble a Russian,American,NATO alliance teamed up with with as many Arab nations as possible and attack the main bases and supply lines with maximum strength.Surely the ISIS main power bases could be defeated in days rather than weeks?
As part of the bargain Russia should force Assad to stand down in a sensible time scale and allow safe havens,no fly zones and refugee areas to be constructed. Hopefully the millions of refugees in Europe would then have somewhere reasonable to return to and restart their lives at home.
Before standing down this force should deploy to other 'trouble' areas i/e Yeman.
Who knows a spinoff might be a new 'entente cordiale 'with Russia which could lead to solutions in the Ukraine and elsewhere??
At the same time the hearts and minds campaign should be pursued with maximum effort with moderate Muslims taking a leading conciliatory role.This would require a worldwide fund of billions and endless talks - America taking a more balanced stance on The Israel , Palestine situation would certainly help.
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Answers have divided roughly in to 2 distinct camps.
Firstly those (experts) who support a military solution and secondly those (experts) who say that this will play in to the hands of the baddies and suggest a long term hearts and minds campaign.
The second solution,whilst of laudable intent will just take too long. How many more atrocities could the West take without actually be seen to do something?
My solution is to do both at the same time and both with maximum effort.
Militarily assemble a Russian,American,NATO alliance teamed up with with as many Arab nations as possible and attack the main bases and supply lines with maximum strength.Surely the ISIS main power bases could be defeated in days rather than weeks?
As part of the bargain Russia should force Assad to stand down in a sensible time scale and allow safe havens,no fly zones and refugee areas to be constructed. Hopefully the millions of refugees in Europe would then have somewhere reasonable to return to and restart their lives at home.
Before standing down this force should deploy to other 'trouble' areas i/e Yeman.
Who knows a spinoff might be a new 'entente cordiale 'with Russia which could lead to solutions in the Ukraine and elsewhere??
At the same time the hearts and minds campaign should be pursued with maximum effort with moderate Muslims taking a leading conciliatory role.This would require a worldwide fund of billions and endless talks - America taking a more balanced stance on The Israel , Palestine situation would certainly help.
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This thread has ran out of steam now. Its only 10 days ago. Horrific to think about. I think the French people have been very dignified in their response, and brave as well. Not crushed either. I always liked the French, deep down. Diffident and cool but also thoughtful,kind and engaging people.
And so the world spins on to the next event.
And so the world spins on to the next event.
Whether the thread has run out of steam or not, the events that Paris triggered have only just begun. Call me Dave thinks that the answer is to turn the Tornados loose in Syria, job done.
Paddy Ashdown was on R4 this morning and suggested that our attention be diverted to the Gulf States and in particular Saudi Arabia, and that it would be more appropriate to encourage/oblige them to take the above action and also to stop financing international jihadism. I hate to suggest it, but he has a point, hasn't he?
Paddy Ashdown was on R4 this morning and suggested that our attention be diverted to the Gulf States and in particular Saudi Arabia, and that it would be more appropriate to encourage/oblige them to take the above action and also to stop financing international jihadism. I hate to suggest it, but he has a point, hasn't he?
He absolutely has a point. This comes back to the question of economics versus morals - the economic benefits of our relations with Saudi Arabia versus the moral costs of tolerating the message of intolerance that emerges from within it. The response to the SU-24 shoot-down this morning will be very interesting as you can argue that Erdogan's Turkey is another side of the same coin. I am probably not alone in thinking that our long-term interests align better with Russia than with the Sunni Muslim states - but admitting so would pose terribly difficult questions over Ukraine, etc, and would require tacit acceptance that Wahhabi Islam was at the root of the problem. Not very PC.
When you consider the complexity of the dilemma, you begin to see that the expedient solution is to bomb ISIL in to non-existence and defer the long-term resolution of the salafi-jihadist problem for another few years...
When you consider the complexity of the dilemma, you begin to see that the expedient solution is to bomb ISIL in to non-existence and defer the long-term resolution of the salafi-jihadist problem for another few years...
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The whole business of Saudi/UAE support for jihadists is straight politics - they're s*** scared of Iran and their own Sunni popluation
Just why we intend to get into a snake pit where everyone else has a dozen agendas is beyond me...................
Just why we intend to get into a snake pit where everyone else has a dozen agendas is beyond me...................
HH,
Just to correct you slightly, the UAE government does not support jihadists, or indeed Islamists of any flavour. Even the Muslim Brotherhood is banned there; it is one of the most aggressively secular governments in the region. I think I read somewhere that the UAE government has been piling pressure on the UK to publish last year's Jenkins Report into the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in the West.
A good case study of the 'sides' we are dealing with is Libya, where Egypt and the UAE are backing secular forces while Qatar and Turkey back the Islamists. Picking out the Saudi involvement can be tricky because their government line can stray towards the secular, even while the private money and clerical hierarchy backs the religious.
It is indeed a snake pit! I think you can simplify matters when you reflect on who our traditional allies in the region are - Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman. Funnily enough, the ones that enjoyed British protection after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Anyone who thinks the Saudis are our allies does not know their history.
Just to correct you slightly, the UAE government does not support jihadists, or indeed Islamists of any flavour. Even the Muslim Brotherhood is banned there; it is one of the most aggressively secular governments in the region. I think I read somewhere that the UAE government has been piling pressure on the UK to publish last year's Jenkins Report into the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood in the West.
A good case study of the 'sides' we are dealing with is Libya, where Egypt and the UAE are backing secular forces while Qatar and Turkey back the Islamists. Picking out the Saudi involvement can be tricky because their government line can stray towards the secular, even while the private money and clerical hierarchy backs the religious.
It is indeed a snake pit! I think you can simplify matters when you reflect on who our traditional allies in the region are - Kuwait, Bahrain, UAE, Oman. Funnily enough, the ones that enjoyed British protection after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. Anyone who thinks the Saudis are our allies does not know their history.
HH:-
And me too, if it's of any consolation. All these heavily armed jihadist outfits; Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, ISIS, and half a hundred others, are all proxies of those in Saudi Arabia and certain other Gulf countries that are united in their religious fanaticism and hatred of the unbelievers.
If we are prepared to attempt to interdict the ISIS income stream, be they fuel convoys or whatever, wouldn't it be more logical to go to the root of those streams, ie the wealth of the Gulf States which is oil based? Unless and until we are prepared to do that (via a UN authorised trade embargo?) we are merely sniping at the edges, and there will be even more attacks on cities, air transport, and anything else that they choose. The governments of these states might well be held in thrall to these extremists, but they should be forced to choose between responsible governance or overseeing a rogue state. If the latter they should be isolated like N Korea, South Africa (as was) and Myanmar (as was), until they in turn become an (as was)..
Filling up at the pumps may seem cheaper than it was, but in reality the cost is becoming totally unacceptable.
Just why we intend to get into a snake pit where everyone else has a dozen agendas is beyond me...
If we are prepared to attempt to interdict the ISIS income stream, be they fuel convoys or whatever, wouldn't it be more logical to go to the root of those streams, ie the wealth of the Gulf States which is oil based? Unless and until we are prepared to do that (via a UN authorised trade embargo?) we are merely sniping at the edges, and there will be even more attacks on cities, air transport, and anything else that they choose. The governments of these states might well be held in thrall to these extremists, but they should be forced to choose between responsible governance or overseeing a rogue state. If the latter they should be isolated like N Korea, South Africa (as was) and Myanmar (as was), until they in turn become an (as was)..
Filling up at the pumps may seem cheaper than it was, but in reality the cost is becoming totally unacceptable.
