Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Hospital bombed in the Afghan city of Kunduz.

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Hospital bombed in the Afghan city of Kunduz.

Old 21st Oct 2015, 15:00
  #101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,624
Originally Posted by Army Mover View Post
First rule of combat; "the plan only lasts till first contact with the enemy."
Agree completely.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 15:31
  #102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
Or first contact with the hospital, in this case.

Highly doubtful that MSF could reasonably be described as "the enemy".
Cazalet33 is offline  
Old 21st Oct 2015, 15:45
  #103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
Originally Posted by Lonewolf
You are wrong, my friend, the effort to get it right never ceases -- your flaw in logic is that there is somewhere a perfect and fool proof procedure. Haven't seen one yet, but I've seen some pretty good ones that when followed prevent a lot of bad things from happening.
And you, my Friend, are right. No matter how many times you revise the procedures, whatever type they may be, they never become perfect. Hell, they were still amending the F4 checklists when she went out of service and they had decades to get those right. As each battle plan is devised to meet the threat of the day, they don't have the same luxury of time to be as right as they can be.

As for battle plans surviving to first contact, I never knew one that lasted that long without some degree of failure.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 24th Oct 2015, 23:08
  #104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
the US pretty much immediately paid compensation to the families of deceased civilians. Along with President Obama calling MSF to apologize, I think that says a lot. Long before the ongoing investigation will reach an official conclusion. A conclusion we (in our lifetime) will most likely never know in, because no one would be insane enough to disclose details about RoE.

A few more details emerged, the US Special Forces and the JTAC on the ground who called in the strike were apparently new to the area. So was the AC-130 crew. I'm a conspiracy theorist (that's what PPRuNe is for), and I still suspect Afghan forces had some grief against that hospital (like, they were giving medical treatment to taliban combatants), and someone in the US chain of command, in a HQ far away failed to notice this was a hospital. I'd also assume because Afghan forces had called for the strike, it would need to be approved slightly higher up the chain of command than if US forces were under attack (even if RoE are different for AC-130 with their highly capable sensors and direct fire capability). I do wish - at the very least - that the career of that individual has ended. I'm sorry, looking at the satellite imagery, and publicly available maps, this doesn't look excusable to me. Fog of war, battle plans that fail, sure, but you need to draw a line somewhere, and I think it was crossed here. Accountability and responsibility shouldn't be empty words.
deptrai is offline  
Old 25th Oct 2015, 00:07
  #105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
Originally Posted by deptrai
the US pretty much immediately paid compensation to the families of deceased civilians. Along with President Obama calling MSF to apologize, I think that says a lot.
Indeed it does. It would be a fair and just response to a terrible event. There is no argument about who did what here. Event: U.S. Aircraft did terrible damage to a hospital. Response: make what little amends one could in those circumstances.

You think it says a lot. It says no more than what I have written in the previous paragraph. It says nothing about the hows and whys. You are fully entitled to speculate about all sorts sorts of things - and, to be honest, that's quite understandable. But we may need to hear a lot more facts before we can judge this. Those are things that will say a lot.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2015, 19:54
  #106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: The Roman Empire
Posts: 2,333
And again for MSF?

Yemen conflict: MSF hospital destroyed by air strikes - BBC News
Biggus is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2015, 21:05
  #107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,624
Originally Posted by Biggus View Post
Notice the deliberate lie and spin already in the media, provided by an MSF spokesman.
"It could be a mistake, but the fact of the matter is it's a war crime," MSF country director Hassan Boucenine told the Reuters news agency.
It isn't a war crime if it's a mistake. That is the fact of the matter.

If it was intentional and the whomever struck with that foreknowledge, there is a case to be made in support of his claim. The Saudi's are at this point saying "need an investigation" ... but the story does have a curious one-two punch to it:
Medecins Sans Frontieres (MSF) says one of its hospitals in northern Yemen has been destroyed by several air strikes. The first, which occurred around 22:30 (19:30 GMT) on Monday, hit part of the facility in Saada province that was not being used, according to the charity. All staff and patients had been evacuated by the time the second strike hit about 10 minutes later. However, the Saudi-led coalition battling Yemen's Houthi rebel movement denied that it had bombed the hospital.
Based on that one two punch, I will be more charitable in assessing this gent's belief that it was deliberate. What nobody knows, or reported, is if that position has been used as a fighting position recently or in and around the time of the attack. MSF will protest that it hasn't, but as they aren't the ones with guns, someone else may have done so regardless of what the medics desired.
"There's no reason to target a hospital. We provided [the coalition] with all of our GPS co-ordinates about two weeks ago," he added.
Technically true in general, except when someone establishes a fighting position at a hospital. At that point, it's no longer safe ... but whether or not that is part of the matter here is unknown.

To sum up: it doesn't mean you were deliberately targeted simply because a bomb hit. What it does mean is that your preventative measure, offered in good faith, still wasn't enough thanks to whatever the C2 and decision making among people with weapons did on a given day.

Why ... remains to be seen.

Conclusion: might have been deliberate, based on the one two punch. Might have been an accident. In this case, I will put my ten bucks with the MSF report thanks to the follow up attack.

What is unknown: did whomever targeted that building know it was a hospital? Don't know yet, and given that it's the Saudis, whose reputation for transparency isn't stellar, that may remain unknown.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2015, 21:54
  #108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
The Saudi bombing of a hospital is just part of a pattern of behaviour which presumes that the mass murderers involved are immune from prosecution by a war crimes tribunal.

The fact that the recent Saudi barbarity wasn't quite on the American scale of such atrocities doesn't excuse them at all. It's still a war crime to bomb or shell a known hospital.

Until some of these murderers are brought to Justice, the war crimes will continue with impunity.
Cazalet33 is offline  
Old 27th Oct 2015, 23:02
  #109 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,624
Originally Posted by Cazalet33 View Post
It's still a war crime to bomb or shell a known hospital.
Willfully and deliberately? Yes, in a war. By the way, if it is known to you and me as a hospital it is utterly irrelevant. As for the fellow with the artillery tube or the plane, then he doesn't know it's a hospital, you have to work your way up the chain of command to find out who did, and how that information got into (or failed to get into) a call for fire. That's where the transparency becomes a concern for finding out how this went down. Your knee jerk assumption isn't any better than the fast mouth from MSF.

Think about this, Caz: if a hospital gets bombed in sometime that is not a war, it's something like arson.

That it was willful is not established, though in this case (as I noted above) the follow up attack points in that direction. That's where my betting money is.

One can also argue that a sufficient state of belligerency has been established to classify what is going on in Yemen as war.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 13th Feb 2016, 12:29
  #110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: flying by night
Posts: 500
I hadn't heard anything about an inquiry into this yet...edit: I just did a quick search, there was a statement, "avoidable human error", compounded by "process failures" and "equipment malfunctioning". Unsurprisingly, lots of holes in the cheese.http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/25/po...ders-hospital/ Yet I was just thinking, maybe it doesn't matter what the public gets to know. The U.S. has likely compensated families of the deceased, and the most important is that they get closure. Hopefully, some lessons were learned, which is equally important. Some career hopes may have been dented, that is the least important (sadly, I have a feeling that will be true for "those who didn't follow RoE", RoE which may have been carefully worded to avert blame from those who created them..).

My reason for suddenly posting in this old thread was that I stumbled across this article, a journalist doing his job, researching a story about a man who died on an operating table, his bicycle, and his mourning daughter. Somewhat disturbing, when it gets personal. The Man on the Operating Table | Foreign Policy

This may be a faint hope, but I do hope decision-makers think twice about what they're doing in Syria. I'm still struggling to see the rationale for NATO involvement in Afghanistan, and struggling see what it actually achieved, and if the costs were justified (tax money as well as human cost). Then again, maybe I'm too impatient, expecting to see instant results.

Last edited by deptrai; 13th Feb 2016 at 12:47.
deptrai is offline  
Old 15th Feb 2016, 09:36
  #111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Austria
Posts: 37
It has become a bad tradition
Backinblack is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 14:03
  #112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,624
Originally Posted by deptrai View Post
I'm still struggling to see the rationale for NATO involvement in Afghanistan
I guess an attack on a NATO member isn't enough for you. Fourteen years, and change, since then, your question about what has been achieved is well asked in more places than at your keyboard, or mine.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 20:03
  #113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
For those of you that have expressed your outrage when NATO/Western forces accidentally hit a hospital in Afg, where is your condemnation for Russia and the Syrian Governments bombing a whole town?

Care to comment Cazalet33?
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 20:18
  #114 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
Delighted to comment.

The bastards should be hauled before a War Crimes Tribunal without delay or mercy.

Russian, American, or whatever: makes no difference.

As for yourself, Courtney, did you express outrage or condemnation when a marked and known hospital was repeatedly bombed with precision munitions and fleeing nurses, doctors and patients were hosed down with machine guns? I did.
Cazalet33 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 20:27
  #115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
You know I didn't. Didn't you read any of my posts at the time?

And it's the fact that you were so outraged then, when it was allied forces, and so silent now it's Russia/Syria (until prompted) that puzzled me.

Not to worry.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 20:45
  #116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
Courtney, I commend a well informed documentary for your education and perhaps edification on the underlying topic:


Not to worry.
Cazalet33 is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 21:05
  #117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Tarn et Garonne, Southwest France
Posts: 5,283
You presume to educate me? Thanks for the offer, but I'll struggle along.
Courtney Mil is offline  
Old 16th Feb 2016, 22:50
  #118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: North Up
Posts: 489
For those who decline an education in the matter, I proffer Part Two:

Cazalet33 is offline  
Old 17th Feb 2016, 14:06
  #119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 61
Posts: 5,624
Thread necromancy: this time used as opportunity for a wind up.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.