Hospital bombed in the Afghan city of Kunduz.
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On the other hand, MSF people would have no expectation of it - and why should they? After all, they're not war-fighters - they're the people who cope with the results.
MSF people are not naiive. They deal with the consequences of American (and other) aggression literally every hour and every day of their working lives.
Their problem is that they cannot easily engage with the 'politics' of those who disregard the Geneva Convention(s) and/or with those who disregard the norms of civilisation.
That is the problem which was addressed by the MSF person in the light of the American aggression which obliterated a well known hospital in Kunduz (the only hospital, actually).
This is a
up, make no mistake. If it was deliberate (which I seriously doubt) it is far more serious and in that case may approach the matter of how allegedly civilized nations wage war. It strikes me as a failure in C3I, or C4I, and IMO not a complex one, particularly when you look at the tools available and the experience base available to do the job correctly. As a US taxpayer and someone once involved in stuff like this, I am not pleased to see what looks like numerous errors in the decision chain resulting in a tragic outcome.
As I pointed out, and as Caz' citation form the NGO points out, it's hard enough to get modern medical care in Afghanistan as it is without someone (accidentally or otherwise) blowing up a hospital.
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But, expected or not, is this not a gross failure of everything the Geneva Convention is supposed to stand for?
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That is the problem which was addressed by the MSF person in the light of the American aggression which obliterated a well known hospital in Kunduz (the only hospital, actually).
Let' try an experiment. Below is a link to an aerial photo of Kunduz. Can you identify any "well known" hospital, orphanage, school, mosque, etc in that photo?
https://www.google.com/maps/@36.7186.../data=!3m1!1e3
But, expected or not, is this not a gross failure of everything the Geneva Convention is supposed to stand for?
Well said, KenV. I was about to make a similar illustration.
For the non-mil aviation people that suddenly seem to have pitched up here itching to sling some mud at mil aircrew and the rest of the mil chain, here's a couple of questions for you.
Where is N34°32'38.0256'' E69° 9' 38.3472'' in this cockpit view?
How many other significant locations are also notified?
How long do you have before you miss the opportunity to attack your designated target?
How many friendly forces will die if you do not commit to the target you have been directed to by ground forces? - hence the importance of Lonewolf's distinction between an air strike and CAS.
Repeated, ill-informed references to the Geneva Convention are not only incorrect, they demonstrate a desperation to seek out any old reason to start shouting "war criminals". We don't even know what actually happened yet.
For the non-mil aviation people that suddenly seem to have pitched up here itching to sling some mud at mil aircrew and the rest of the mil chain, here's a couple of questions for you.
Where is N34°32'38.0256'' E69° 9' 38.3472'' in this cockpit view?
How many other significant locations are also notified?
How long do you have before you miss the opportunity to attack your designated target?
How many friendly forces will die if you do not commit to the target you have been directed to by ground forces? - hence the importance of Lonewolf's distinction between an air strike and CAS.
Repeated, ill-informed references to the Geneva Convention are not only incorrect, they demonstrate a desperation to seek out any old reason to start shouting "war criminals". We don't even know what actually happened yet.
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 7th Oct 2015 at 21:34.
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Try plotting the only known hospital in a city on a map.
Then pick your target.
Then think about your actions.
Then think about the consequences of your actions.
Not necessarily in that order.
You figure it out.
Then pick your target.
Then think about your actions.
Then think about the consequences of your actions.
Not necessarily in that order.
You figure it out.
And you really believe that's the only important Lat and Long active on that particular day?
Now try answering all the above questions, not just one of your own invention.
Now try answering all the above questions, not just one of your own invention.
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Cazalet33, a different question for you. How hard did you find it to identify the target, positions of friendly ground forces and civilian areas the last time you did a CAS mission?
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M2, the bombers didn't have any difficulty in identifying the hospital when they targeted it.
Targeting the only hospital in a region as large as that really isn't difficult, especially when you've had the co-ords for months.
Just do it, if that's what turns you on.
It's not as if the hospital might have moved or shot back or something.
It really wasn't something seriously threatening to the Empire, like a pheasant or a grouse or a goose or something. Not something really worth shooting at like that.
Targeting the only hospital in a region as large as that really isn't difficult, especially when you've had the co-ords for months.
Just do it, if that's what turns you on.
It's not as if the hospital might have moved or shot back or something.
It really wasn't something seriously threatening to the Empire, like a pheasant or a grouse or a goose or something. Not something really worth shooting at like that.
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So the answer is never.
Never bomb hospitals. Not ever, ever.
Just never worth the profit. Ever.
We wrote a rule about that, but the type who just don't understand the rule will never ever respect it.
That's a limitation of all Geneva Conventions.
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Cazalet33
Your avoidance has answered my question very well. You have clearly never flow CAS.
Your statement demonstrates very well that you have come here to criticise the mil pilots. It is based on an assumption that the instruction was to target "a hospital" and not "a building". Your posts are so contradictory that I suspect you are only here for one reason. Earlier you wanted them to mark the hospital on their "map", now you suggest that they identified it in order to target it.
This was a CAS mission. I am not about to go into a long and involved description of how CAS is done, but I will remind you to consider the targeting role involved.
The latter part of your post and your insistence that this was a deliberate act are simply trolling. Not necessary here. The rest is simplistic and somewhat naive.
Just to remain you: Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.
Your avoidance has answered my question very well. You have clearly never flow CAS.
Your statement demonstrates very well that you have come here to criticise the mil pilots. It is based on an assumption that the instruction was to target "a hospital" and not "a building". Your posts are so contradictory that I suspect you are only here for one reason. Earlier you wanted them to mark the hospital on their "map", now you suggest that they identified it in order to target it.
This was a CAS mission. I am not about to go into a long and involved description of how CAS is done, but I will remind you to consider the targeting role involved.
The latter part of your post and your insistence that this was a deliberate act are simply trolling. Not necessary here. The rest is simplistic and somewhat naive.
Just to remain you: Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.
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April 2015 satellite imagery of the coordinates provided, roughly 1km2:
the (almost) cross-shaped larger building in the center is identified as "Kunduz District Hospital" in older maps.
(direct link here TerraServer - Aerial Photos & Satellite Images - The Leader In Online Imagery )
closeup, 0.1km2:
this is a recording of CAS as seen through AC 130 sensors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOG9GHVV0c
the (almost) cross-shaped larger building in the center is identified as "Kunduz District Hospital" in older maps.
(direct link here TerraServer - Aerial Photos & Satellite Images - The Leader In Online Imagery )
closeup, 0.1km2:
this is a recording of CAS as seen through AC 130 sensors:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSOG9GHVV0c
Last edited by deptrai; 8th Oct 2015 at 02:33.
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Are we expected to believe that the US military did not know that the targeted building was a hospital?
Is the denial in any way credible?
It's not a very plausible denial, but the murderers should be given a chance to make their excuses to a properly constituted war crimes tribunal.
If the Americans cannot or will not abide by the Geneva Convention(s) then it's probably best for everyone that they just go away. Leave Afghanistan and Iraq and just go away.
MSF's task is hard enough without American-style thuggery being added to the problem list of the NGOs.
Is the denial in any way credible?
It's not a very plausible denial, but the murderers should be given a chance to make their excuses to a properly constituted war crimes tribunal.
If the Americans cannot or will not abide by the Geneva Convention(s) then it's probably best for everyone that they just go away. Leave Afghanistan and Iraq and just go away.
MSF's task is hard enough without American-style thuggery being added to the problem list of the NGOs.
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If you watch the video above you'll see how the crew identifies a mosque, to NOT fire on it. I don't believe for a second that that the US would deliberately sustain fire on a hospital. I do believe this is an accident. The question is, how did it happen. We can only speculate here, we weren't there, and maybe we shouldn't speculate but it's a rumor forum. To me, the most likely speculation is that the crew didn't have the information that it's a hospital.
Cazalet/JH has moved beyond asking questions, indeed he has arrived at a conclusion minus the data to do so. I think M2 has nailed it in the description of this man as a troll and as such should be ignored, which is exactly what I plan on.
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If the US military did not know that the hospital was located at that very prominent position, right at the head of the Nasvan-e-Markazi Road, then they should not have been attacking the city at all.
If that's the best they can do, then it's better for all that they just go away. They are not doing any good in Afghanistan, so they should just leave.
14 years ago we were told that it was necessary to attack Afghanistan in revenge for the 9/11 atrocities. 14 years later we still haven't found a shred of evidence that Afghanistan or any Afghans were involved. Time to back off.
The wrongful attack on the hospital was just a microcosm of the macromistake of attacking Afghanistan in the first place.
If that's the best they can do, then it's better for all that they just go away. They are not doing any good in Afghanistan, so they should just leave.
14 years ago we were told that it was necessary to attack Afghanistan in revenge for the 9/11 atrocities. 14 years later we still haven't found a shred of evidence that Afghanistan or any Afghans were involved. Time to back off.
The wrongful attack on the hospital was just a microcosm of the macromistake of attacking Afghanistan in the first place.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Caz, we were invited in by the Afg Government to fight the Taliban.
The pictures of that hospital might suggest it is recognizable but I see no visible indications, no crescent, no help pad, nothing. While 'everyone' should have known it was a hospital you presume the aircraft crew also knew. They may have been new in theatre. This may have been a very early sortie in their tour.
Just because it is a hospital does not mean it is only a hospital.
In WW 2 the Germans stored ammunition in the underground hospital in Guernsey.
In Iraq terrorists place a huge bomb outside a hospital. The target was the EOD officer, the hospital was bait.
Wait for the facts.
The pictures of that hospital might suggest it is recognizable but I see no visible indications, no crescent, no help pad, nothing. While 'everyone' should have known it was a hospital you presume the aircraft crew also knew. They may have been new in theatre. This may have been a very early sortie in their tour.
Just because it is a hospital does not mean it is only a hospital.
In WW 2 the Germans stored ammunition in the underground hospital in Guernsey.
In Iraq terrorists place a huge bomb outside a hospital. The target was the EOD officer, the hospital was bait.
Wait for the facts.