Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I served on 230 Sqn in the early 80s and I can't recall who that could have been.
Please remind me who it was.
I don't recall his name - sorry. I do remember it was towards the end of my tour there, so would have been 83/84; hope that helps.
Late addition - in trying to track this guy down, I've discovered a post on here from 2004 that said that the RM no longer had NCO pilots - officers only.
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I served on 230 Sqn in the early 80s and I can't recall who that could have been.
Please remind me who it was.
I don't recall his name - sorry. I do remember it was towards the end of my tour there, so would have been 83/84; hope that helps.
Late addition - in trying to track this guy down, I've discovered a post on here from 2004 that said that the RM no longer had NCO pilots - officers only.
CG
I believe Royal Navy gave up Senior Rating pilots long time ago - Jenkins
I cannot confirm the earliest date from which rating pilots flew as Petty Officer Pilots - so over to Kew? However, of the fifty-five Fleet Air Arm pilots who flew at least one recognised operational sortie during the Battle of Britain, three were Petty Officer Pilots. In 1948, rating pilots in the Royal Navy were commissioned if otherwise qualified, reverted to their source branch, or left the Service, and the rating of Petty Officer Pilot ceased to exist.
Here's the obituary of a particularly interesting and distinguished former Petty Officer Pilot:
Lieutenant-Commander Bill Filer - Telegraph
and, before anyone queries the badge worn in the second photograph, it's apparently a Royal Canadian Navy Clearance Diving Officer's badge, presented by the RCN - probably being worn unofficially, but who would deny someone with his record.
Incidentally, I believe that a number of WRNS ratings were enrolled as Observers - in early 1918!
Jack
I cannot confirm the earliest date from which rating pilots flew as Petty Officer Pilots - so over to Kew? However, of the fifty-five Fleet Air Arm pilots who flew at least one recognised operational sortie during the Battle of Britain, three were Petty Officer Pilots. In 1948, rating pilots in the Royal Navy were commissioned if otherwise qualified, reverted to their source branch, or left the Service, and the rating of Petty Officer Pilot ceased to exist.
Here's the obituary of a particularly interesting and distinguished former Petty Officer Pilot:
Lieutenant-Commander Bill Filer - Telegraph
and, before anyone queries the badge worn in the second photograph, it's apparently a Royal Canadian Navy Clearance Diving Officer's badge, presented by the RCN - probably being worn unofficially, but who would deny someone with his record.
Incidentally, I believe that a number of WRNS ratings were enrolled as Observers - in early 1918!
Jack
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RN had same ranking issues as RAF
To move the discussion sideways for a moment, the ranking system (anomalies) also applied in the RN as well as the RAF.
50 years ago I was drafted to RNAS Sembawang, to provide second level support to the Helicopter squadrons in Borneo.
I was an Electrical Artiificer, full Navy apprenticeship, and as such was ranked as a Chief Petty Officer at age 23.
Sembawang at the time was run by 3rd Commando Brigade with a Marine Colonel as CO.
The Marines Sergeants Mess was run on Army lines as was the custom, so you can imagine the consternation among the grizzled Sergeants who lived in when they realized that I was the senior member of the mess, and by default could control when the bar opened and closed.
Free beer for six weeks until my wife arrived.
50 years ago I was drafted to RNAS Sembawang, to provide second level support to the Helicopter squadrons in Borneo.
I was an Electrical Artiificer, full Navy apprenticeship, and as such was ranked as a Chief Petty Officer at age 23.
Sembawang at the time was run by 3rd Commando Brigade with a Marine Colonel as CO.
The Marines Sergeants Mess was run on Army lines as was the custom, so you can imagine the consternation among the grizzled Sergeants who lived in when they realized that I was the senior member of the mess, and by default could control when the bar opened and closed.
Free beer for six weeks until my wife arrived.
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Jack,
Google "Jackie Moggridge". Pick "jackie moggridge wiki"
select:
war service of Jackie Moggridge, 1939-1945 - South African Military ...
Worth a look !
Danny.
Google "Jackie Moggridge". Pick "jackie moggridge wiki"
select:
war service of Jackie Moggridge, 1939-1945 - South African Military ...
Worth a look !
Danny.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Rolling 20, while Deighton' s work was fiction it should perhaps be assigned to the faction genre rather than pure fiction. Alf Price, a budding historical author and authority was one of Deighton' s researchers.
The format, stepping the story forward from both sides, is one that Price has used in much of his later works. As a work of fiction it probably is more factual than fictional.
The format, stepping the story forward from both sides, is one that Price has used in much of his later works. As a work of fiction it probably is more factual than fictional.
Pontius, that aside (and I have read some of Price's work) I think Tanker is referring to a 2 Group story of young Sergeants at first being shunned by the 'old sweats" and then being showed compassion after the horrendous losses they suffered on Blenheims. One part of Bomber I have always had a problem with ( and I cannot remember the exact detail, having read it some time ago),was when the hero? returns to the squadron some months after evading and is put on ops that night and is subsequently lost. That was not a scenario that would have existed at the time for various reasons.
Last edited by rolling20; 21st Aug 2015 at 19:45.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Rolling, agree as I believe MI 9 found them more valuable as lecturers than mere aircrew. I think that rule was definitely in force for escapees lest the Gestapo got them.
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WO Andy Gough, who ran the Gliding school at RAF Bicester.
He taught me to glide. He was tragically killed whilst flying a display in a Blanik
He taught me to glide. He was tragically killed whilst flying a display in a Blanik
Worth a look!
Worth a look indeed, Danny, and I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the links you kindly provided so thank you very much for the steer, not least for the South African connection.
What a girl, and what an amazing flying career, and she will, incidentally, almost certainly have known Rita, the ATA pilot I referred to in a PM, who knew some of the same ATA female pilots. I'm also still marvelling that Jackie apparently flew her first solo in a twin-engined DH Rapide!
All the best
Jack
Worth a look indeed, Danny, and I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the links you kindly provided so thank you very much for the steer, not least for the South African connection.
What a girl, and what an amazing flying career, and she will, incidentally, almost certainly have known Rita, the ATA pilot I referred to in a PM, who knew some of the same ATA female pilots. I'm also still marvelling that Jackie apparently flew her first solo in a twin-engined DH Rapide!
All the best
Jack
Andy Gough......
.....One of a group of the best in the RAFGSA at that time others including Pete Dawson (Taught me to glide and soar properly), T*g W****n, Paddy Hogg. none of them creamies I suspect
Sorry, thread drift off!
C
Sorry, thread drift off!
C
If I may settle the matter of which book. As it happens I havent read Max Hastings' book, excellent as I am sure it is, but I have probably read Bomber at least half a dozen times and can assure you Len Deighton makes reference to resentment towards sergeant aircrew from older SNCOs. As P-N has said, Deighton researched the book very thoroughly, so I have no doubt he got the story from a similar source to that used by Hastings.
I also have very positive memories of Andy Gough and was active at Bicester when he died. I understood he actually turned down a commission. He was a smart man and very much the boss. By not being in the officer career structure he was probably more powerful, certainly he had more freedom to do what he wanted. This benefited a lot of people myself included. Group captains and higher officers did what he said when they were on his turf.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN
Indeed, it is apparent that their is a source 'circuit'. As you get noticed as a source so you get further requests and so on. A danger is if there are too few then details may become distorted or the view too narrow. An obvious case is Aunty using one 'expert' often well outside his expertise.
so I have no doubt he got the story from a similar source to that used by Hastings
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I remember when I was serving early on we had one pilot (whose name escapes me although I can see him clearly) who thought he was the last Warrant Officer pilot to be "forced" to take a commission. He had flown Lancasters and been on Maritime surveillance after the war. He was pretty upset at the initial pay drop. One of our best pilots though.
On another note, wasn't there a sleeve badge - a copper-bronze eagle with a crown above (quite small) that was worn by the Commissioned Warrant Officers?
On another note, wasn't there a sleeve badge - a copper-bronze eagle with a crown above (quite small) that was worn by the Commissioned Warrant Officers?
