Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
Back to the present era, from my limited experience I don't believe many foreign airforces use non-commissioned pilots. Even the U.S. Army uses C(omissioned)WO. Is the AAC not almost unique amongst modern airforces?
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V bomber crews
A question for you ex V bombers, apart from the Valiant, were there any AEOps on the crew? I knew they were on the Valiants because my old EW instructor at Topcliffe was one, but I was under the impression that was after they changed over to the tanking role. I thought that any involvement with nuclear weapons meant all officer aircrew, but, having just read 'Valiant Boys' by Tony Blackman, it is quite clear AEOps were on some crews holding QRA from the beginning.
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Is the AAC unique, I think it is at the moment, until there are no more SNCO's coming through the system and it goes the way of the other two services....but it isn't policy...promise.
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AQA, I believe that was true of Valiants, certainly met one ex-Sig who had been in 18 but I don't think they were bombers. Siggies proceeded AEOps and many then converted. We had an ex-truckie flt lt Sig on the Vulcan ICY but he withdrew as there was too much electrics as well as radio and ECM.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 19th Aug 2015 at 20:59.
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AQA
We definitely had SNCO WOP's on 214, while we were doing the Tanking Trials, at this time we were still in the command strength as a 'bomber' squadron and we even did a Sunspot at Luqa in Sept/Oct 59.
We also had one Flt Sgt Navigator.
We definitely had SNCO WOP's on 214, while we were doing the Tanking Trials, at this time we were still in the command strength as a 'bomber' squadron and we even did a Sunspot at Luqa in Sept/Oct 59.
We also had one Flt Sgt Navigator.
Just come across this thread and, if it's OK would make a couple of comments from the preceding posts. Firstly, I can certainly back up the notion of inter techie ill will regarding changes to promotion patterns. The Techies referred to previously, who passed out of training as Cpls, with fast promotion to Sgt, were Technician apprentices, originally designed as systems diagnosticians for TSR2. The whole plan would put them in charge of a team of single trade techies, who would rely on them to diagnose and delegate the work required, they had to be NCOs for that role. They did a 3 year apprentice course covering 3 trades I believe. I joined as a Craft Apprentice and completed a 2 year course as an Airframe Fitter, passing out as a Jnr Tech, with time promotion to Cpl after 3 years. On arrival at Colerne (C130 Major servicing) there was quite a bit of personal vitriol placed my way by 30 year old SAC Airframe mechanics, why I could never understand, I joined the system, I didn't invent it. Moving on, I was fortunate to serve most of my last years in service as a Chf Tech Aircraft Ground Engineer (AGE) on the C130. Now, a more welcoming bunch of people you could never wish to work with. From Gp Capt Pilot to newly qualified Loadmasters. Generally the AGE on the Herk was treated as part of the crew, and respected for what he brought to the table, and perhaps that's where the rank becomes fairly irrelevant. Perhaps Chf Tech was a bit of an unknown in their rank structure. I suspect that in many multi rank crew fleets it is competence, not rank status, that gets the job done, and the camaraderie to feel part of it all is its own reward. As a few have said already, I always believed that the all commissioned crew was the result of the RAF holding the National Nuclear deterrent role, prior to Polaris, several books have disabused me of that thinking so perhaps it is simply cheaper to recruit pilots to the commissioned ranks only. Like the OP, not sure I've seen this subject raised before so apologies if I've repeated old opinion, an interesting thread though, none of us are too old to learn!
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Smudge, and V-Force chiefs too. Crews had their favourite chiefs for rangers.
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"there was quite a bit of personal vitriol placed my way by 30 year old SAC Airframe mechanics, why I could never understand"
Smuj, it has always been so, any job that allows you to circumvent the usually longer path to promotion ahead of your peers is always going to be met with some jealousy and resentmet, it's human nature.
The Appo's were always looked down upon by the technicians who had started and served there time as mechs, given the chance I'm sure a lot of the mechs would have taken the appo route, however given the way they were treated for three years at Halton I'm not so sure.
Smuj, it has always been so, any job that allows you to circumvent the usually longer path to promotion ahead of your peers is always going to be met with some jealousy and resentmet, it's human nature.
The Appo's were always looked down upon by the technicians who had started and served there time as mechs, given the chance I'm sure a lot of the mechs would have taken the appo route, however given the way they were treated for three years at Halton I'm not so sure.
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V-Force chiefs too
Apologies for thread drift.
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Fully agree about the sixth man on Rangers! Hamish(Where are you now?), Steve, Dick, Andy, and all the splendid bunch on 44(R) were very welcome on my jet.
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Is the AAC not almost unique amongst modern airforces?
Avoid imitations
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I thought the Navy also had NCO pilots; there was certainly a Royal Marine Warrant Officer pilot flying on 230 when I was at Gutersloh in the early 80's.
Please remind me who it was.
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Late addition - in trying to track this guy down, I've discovered a post on here from 2004 that said that the RM no longer had NCO pilots - officers only.
Last edited by Army Mover; 21st Aug 2015 at 10:03.
The army had the right idea in the very early days. The NCO sat in the front and drove it, the officer sat in the back and did the clever stuff.
All been downhill since then
All been downhill since then
Avoid imitations
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It all went downhill after they were given more than one horsepower each 
I believe that the reason that ejector seats were not fitted or the V Bombers modified for the rear crew was that it was cheaper to train two new navigators and an AEO.
As a lowly co-pilot who had to sit in the corner until his chain was rattled if the crap really hit the fan I was first out.
As a lowly co-pilot who had to sit in the corner until his chain was rattled if the crap really hit the fan I was first out.
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running Royal Navy gliding
He taught me to glide. He was tragically killed whilst flying a display in a Blanik