Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots
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A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
Smudge,
Recalls the famous instruction from a Cranwell Drill Sgt-Major (?) to the Cadets (no, I never went there):
"You call me Sir, and I call you Sir - the difference is: You will mean it !"
I'm not quite sure about the blue-on-gold bar I posted (#106, Wiki says "Army Air Forces in WWII", [there was no U.S.(Army) Air Force till '47, before that it was the U.S. Army Air Corps] I seem to remember them teaching me about a Commissioned Warrant Officer's 2nd Lieut's single gold bar with a thin black bar across. Nothing about any blue colour. Plenty of PPRuNers across the pond can put us right on that.
Out there we were "Aviation Cadets" (and RAF LACS under the skin, either way dogsbodies). As such, we were "neither flesh, fowl nor good red herring" - but a Master Sergeant would call you "Mister" (before he kicked you around). Complicated, innit ? Truly YLSNED.
Danny.
Recalls the famous instruction from a Cranwell Drill Sgt-Major (?) to the Cadets (no, I never went there):
"You call me Sir, and I call you Sir - the difference is: You will mean it !"
I'm not quite sure about the blue-on-gold bar I posted (#106, Wiki says "Army Air Forces in WWII", [there was no U.S.(Army) Air Force till '47, before that it was the U.S. Army Air Corps] I seem to remember them teaching me about a Commissioned Warrant Officer's 2nd Lieut's single gold bar with a thin black bar across. Nothing about any blue colour. Plenty of PPRuNers across the pond can put us right on that.
Out there we were "Aviation Cadets" (and RAF LACS under the skin, either way dogsbodies). As such, we were "neither flesh, fowl nor good red herring" - but a Master Sergeant would call you "Mister" (before he kicked you around). Complicated, innit ? Truly YLSNED.
Danny.
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https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/ I found a picture of the eagle and crown badge on a WW II Flight Lieutenant's uniform - the badge is immediately above the rank stripes. But the system here refuses to accept a URL for pinterest where I have put the picture. The person who told me this insignia was used by Warrant Officers who had been given a SSC for the duration was the Flight Lieutenant son of a Wing Commander who still wore it on his uniform into the 1960s
Very interesting photo, Royalistflier. The more I look at it the more I think that it is an RAAF uniform, not RAF - the shade of blue looks wrong for RAF. In addition to the mysterious eagle and crown, the chap appears to be wearing WW2 overseas service chevrons. I may be wrong but I dont think these were ever worn by RAF officers, or even if they were worn by RAF ORs, but I know they were worn by RAAF ORs at least.
Any Oz Mates help? I'm confused here
Any Oz Mates help? I'm confused here
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, with the increasing numbers of reenactors, especially WW2, it is possible that glamed up uniforms are appearing. I have seen a WO and pilot wings (possible I know), a flt lt in KD BJ and blue shirt, etc etc.
On that pic, not the colour change and crease line at the bottom of the cuff; it appears to have been lengthened.
On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one. Mind you, as the MRAF of the RAF I guess KG VI could get away with it.
Any one remember a trial pattern No 1 from late 50s early 60s, possibly Burton's, the back had seams like the No 5 sweeping up to the shoulders?
On that pic, not the colour change and crease line at the bottom of the cuff; it appears to have been lengthened.
On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one. Mind you, as the MRAF of the RAF I guess KG VI could get away with it.
Any one remember a trial pattern No 1 from late 50s early 60s, possibly Burton's, the back had seams like the No 5 sweeping up to the shoulders?
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Pontius Navigator,
Your #125: "On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one....."
Everybody did it at the time. Why throw a perfectly good No.1 SD away, when all you needed to do was to cut the bottom button off, shrug the buckle down half an inch to cover the buttonhole, and voilà - a new pattern jacket ! The perfectionists had the surplus buttonhole "invisibly" mended, but they were few in number.
"Exchange and Mart" had at that time a lot of new, surplus W.O. No.1s on sale at a knockdown price. Cheapskates (look no further) bought one, cut off the "Two Dogs Fighting", and bottom button as before, Memsahib sewed on your braid (they could sew in those days, and use an iron), and "Bob's your Uncle"- a good working uniform.
Your: "Any one remember a trial pattern No 1.......?" Can I ever forget ! The whole sad story
is on my Post (p.165/#3288) on "...Pilot's Brevet..."). If KGVI dodged the column, then he was a damn' hypocrite in my book !
Danny.
Your #125: "On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one....."
Everybody did it at the time. Why throw a perfectly good No.1 SD away, when all you needed to do was to cut the bottom button off, shrug the buckle down half an inch to cover the buttonhole, and voilà - a new pattern jacket ! The perfectionists had the surplus buttonhole "invisibly" mended, but they were few in number.
"Exchange and Mart" had at that time a lot of new, surplus W.O. No.1s on sale at a knockdown price. Cheapskates (look no further) bought one, cut off the "Two Dogs Fighting", and bottom button as before, Memsahib sewed on your braid (they could sew in those days, and use an iron), and "Bob's your Uncle"- a good working uniform.
Your: "Any one remember a trial pattern No 1.......?" Can I ever forget ! The whole sad story
is on my Post (p.165/#3288) on "...Pilot's Brevet..."). If KGVI dodged the column, then he was a damn' hypocrite in my book !Danny.
Last edited by Danny42C; 26th Aug 2015 at 08:52. Reason: Error
Re Burtons - when we were at OCTU and ordering our uniforms from Gieves, Moss Bros, Alkit, etc, one of our number told us he was getting his from Burtons. Of course this brought forth a lot of snobby comments, but he responded by telling us that in civvy life he had been working for Burtons up North somewhere. They had a contract where they received half finished uniforms from Moss Bros all ready to be sewn together, rather in the way that modern British cars are merely assembled here. They even sewed the Moss Bros label in!
My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 which was every bit as good as its Gieves predecessor, but I dont think it was one of the fancy ones you describe.
My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 which was every bit as good as its Gieves predecessor, but I dont think it was one of the fancy ones you describe.
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TTN,
Your: "My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 ..." So do ours !
Monty's was fine so long as you were a stock size (which fortunately I was - and still am !)
In '50-'51, they would do you a barathea battledress for £12/15/0, a No.1 jacket and slacks for £13/15/0 and a Crombie (yes !) Greatcoat for £15/15/0.
(multiply by 32 for today's money).
Those who bought the gold-lace-wings jobs never wore them - you would have been the object of universal derision.
Danny.
Your: "My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 ..." So do ours !
Monty's was fine so long as you were a stock size (which fortunately I was - and still am !)
In '50-'51, they would do you a barathea battledress for £12/15/0, a No.1 jacket and slacks for £13/15/0 and a Crombie (yes !) Greatcoat for £15/15/0.
(multiply by 32 for today's money).
Those who bought the gold-lace-wings jobs never wore them - you would have been the object of universal derision.
Danny.
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Thread drift, sorry. No 1's, Ah Wah Lam, Kai Tak and Sek Kong, good enough for the CAS, Sir MB. Made my first mess kit and forage cap from the same bolt of cloth as Sir M's No1.
PM
PM
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Danny, thank you.
TTN, indeed. Now I think someone unlocked the 'RE Gieves Bros Kit
label and found Monty' s label underneath.
TTN, indeed. Now I think someone unlocked the 'RE Gieves Bros Kit
label and found Monty' s label underneath.
RF, simply pasted the "copy image location" into the PPRuNe image posting link for you. Seems to work OK.
BTW Danny,
there was no U.S.(Army) Air Force till '47, before that it was the U.S. Army Air Corps
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United...rmy_Air_Forces
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force
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Mea maxima Culpa.
Chugalug,
I have to come out with my pedantic pants down again ! Why do I never learn ? It was the same with my brief sojourn as an historian, as you may remember.
Thanks for the links - but I don't have to read them - I'm sure you're right!
Danny.
I have to come out with my pedantic pants down again ! Why do I never learn ? It was the same with my brief sojourn as an historian, as you may remember.
Thanks for the links - but I don't have to read them - I'm sure you're right!
Danny.
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Royalistflyer,
Your: "https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/ I found a picture of the eagle and crown badge on a WW II Flight Lieutenant's uniform - the badge is immediately above the rank stripes".
I recall seeing exactly this long ago on this Thread, it was an early group pic of a squadron in which was a RAAF Flt Lt with an indistinct something just above the braid. One suggestion was a kangaroo, but it was later identified as an eagle'ncrown, same thing as you wore on your Cap FS. I have never seen the chevrons above on an officer's uniform, and have absolutely no idea what they might be.
Rooting about on Google turned up this (Wiki):
"...In 1947 *, the temperate officers' services dress jacket was altered. The lower side pockets were removed and the single slit was replaced by two hacking jacket style slits. The lower button was moved up to a position behind the belt and silk embroidery flying badges were replaced with ones in bullion embroidery. These changes were unpopular ** and in 1951, with the exception of the lower button move, the former uniform style was re-adopted.[1] ***"
Note *: Only in '51 was there any attempt to enforce this; IIRC there were two A.M.Os on the subject in that year, followed by the climb-down in a third.
Note **: "met with universial execration" might be nearer the mark.
Note ***: [1] has full pictures of the loathsome thing. It shows the gold wire "N" wing (shades of a misguided nav on 110 Sqdn. in India'43 (my Post p.133 #2649 on "Pilot's Brevet"). I had an inch-long gold braid "wound stripe" for my jacket sleeve, but we don't need to go into that now, and in any case I didn't wear it.
Danny.
Your: "https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/ I found a picture of the eagle and crown badge on a WW II Flight Lieutenant's uniform - the badge is immediately above the rank stripes".
I recall seeing exactly this long ago on this Thread, it was an early group pic of a squadron in which was a RAAF Flt Lt with an indistinct something just above the braid. One suggestion was a kangaroo, but it was later identified as an eagle'ncrown, same thing as you wore on your Cap FS. I have never seen the chevrons above on an officer's uniform, and have absolutely no idea what they might be.
Rooting about on Google turned up this (Wiki):
"...In 1947 *, the temperate officers' services dress jacket was altered. The lower side pockets were removed and the single slit was replaced by two hacking jacket style slits. The lower button was moved up to a position behind the belt and silk embroidery flying badges were replaced with ones in bullion embroidery. These changes were unpopular ** and in 1951, with the exception of the lower button move, the former uniform style was re-adopted.[1] ***"
Note *: Only in '51 was there any attempt to enforce this; IIRC there were two A.M.Os on the subject in that year, followed by the climb-down in a third.
Note **: "met with universial execration" might be nearer the mark.
Note ***: [1] has full pictures of the loathsome thing. It shows the gold wire "N" wing (shades of a misguided nav on 110 Sqdn. in India'43 (my Post p.133 #2649 on "Pilot's Brevet"). I had an inch-long gold braid "wound stripe" for my jacket sleeve, but we don't need to go into that now, and in any case I didn't wear it.
Danny.
Danny has mentioned his wound stripe, which I'm sure many have never heard of. I've heard of them, but in 35 years of dealing in militaria I've never actually seen one. Here's a link to a discussion about them on another site.
RAF Wound Stripe
As to the chevrons in the picture, as I mentioned above these appear to be overseas service stripes which were authorised in 1944, retrospectively I think. Seen plenty of these, but not on an RAF officer's uniform.
RAF Wound Stripe
As to the chevrons in the picture, as I mentioned above these appear to be overseas service stripes which were authorised in 1944, retrospectively I think. Seen plenty of these, but not on an RAF officer's uniform.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I raised the issue of that No1 style as a nav, complete with gold wing, had one at IIRC Hullavington circa 1962. Only saw if once, briefly, in the mess and asked one of the old hairy instructors (around 28 I guess).
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
TTN, IIRC the RAAF uniform was a very dark blue and very different from RAF barathea.
Ps
PM the cloth above shows a different weave from Barathea.
Ps
PM the cloth above shows a different weave from Barathea.
Last edited by Pontius Navigator; 27th Aug 2015 at 10:40.
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Thanks Pathfinder, Now back to my original question - That's what I saw on my RAF friend's father's uniform, which he identified as meaning that his father had been a WW II Warrant Officer offered a SSC for the duration. Was he wrong? Since he was an RAF officer it seems unlikely that he'd get that story wrong. AFAIK that picture is not normal RAAF either - could both services have at that time had the same reason for having it. I imagine it would have been pretty rare anyway.