Reports of A400 Crash, Saville, Spain
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PN
May I suggest that those commenting on WINNERHOFER follow his lead and delete posts referring to Winnerhoffer.
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I had the honour of operating with some of the gentlemen involved in this tragedy and offer my sincere condolences to their friends and families.
A sad event made slightly bitter on PPRune by those who consider themselves so important that they attempt to 'score points' and speculate on cause from a point of ignorance, rather than respect both a tragic loss and an ongoing process of formal investigation.
A sad event made slightly bitter on PPRune by those who consider themselves so important that they attempt to 'score points' and speculate on cause from a point of ignorance, rather than respect both a tragic loss and an ongoing process of formal investigation.
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Not a criticism but I sometimes wonder whether it would be best for anyone connected to a tragic event like this, or to any personnel directly involved with it to avoid viewing the thread/s altogether.
It's unlikely in many cases that a thread on PPRuNe will throw learned insight into what happened or how an incident developed, but is more likely to contain pure speculation and a certain degree of disrespect.
OK, it's a rumour network, but boundaries of common sense and good taste often seem to be crossed and it might just be better to wait for the official reports to be published. Just a thought.
It's unlikely in many cases that a thread on PPRuNe will throw learned insight into what happened or how an incident developed, but is more likely to contain pure speculation and a certain degree of disrespect.
OK, it's a rumour network, but boundaries of common sense and good taste often seem to be crossed and it might just be better to wait for the official reports to be published. Just a thought.
Will the spanish military investigators publish any report someday or is this accident now out of any public view? Considering it's a major european aircraft program it would be nice to get a little more info on what has happened.
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I'm sorry but I don't buy into the view that speculating in a rumour network on the possible causes of a tragic accident are necessarily insensitive and disrespectful. Informed or uninformed input and speculation is a key element in a network such as this, provided it does not cross the line of good taste and manners. Policing that is a key responsibility of the moderators.
If those posters who have a personal interest in the event are going to be upset by what is posted, please don't read the thread and perhaps open a separate condolences thread.
If those posters who have a personal interest in the event are going to be upset by what is posted, please don't read the thread and perhaps open a separate condolences thread.
Genstabler wrote:
I firmly disagree. Uninformed fruitcake and MSFS-geek comments continue to plague Rumours and News every time another airline accident occurs; fortunately that hasn't happened on this thread - apart from some idiot comment about aerobatics....
Hopefully it'll stay that way.
Informed or uninformed input and speculation is a key element in a network such as this....
Hopefully it'll stay that way.
My condolences to the families of the deceased and those who knew them personally.
Over the years I found - and long before I registered as a member - that the new and archived threads are a formidable source of aviation related information. Not all, but often, this information emerges from the discussion around accident causes & circumstances.
I find it unnecessary if contributors are ridiculed when their questions show lack of complete technical understanding. Hey, he was asking a question, and those who are in the know may respond!
It is understandable that those who are close to you, are closer to your heart, and the fate of those who are far away, stir lesser sympathy. That's just our human nature. But isn't it hypocritical to supress open discussion under the pretext of respect or military secrecy / code of honour just because the deceased are central European, while in cases of far-away incidents (read: Turkish, Asian, ...) the debates are boundless and don't refrain from - rightly or wrongly - patronising remarks about the safety or other culture in other countries?
Personally, I am not more or less affected by this accident than by any other aviation accident. Being a pilot myself, it is close to my heart even without having known the deceased. Therefore, I want to know what happened, in the interest of aviation safety and with the hope to be able to at least learn something from this tragedy. In this sense I would hope the open discussion on all technical and human/CRM aspects of the operation of the A400M as well as the accident sequence may continue.
Over the years I found - and long before I registered as a member - that the new and archived threads are a formidable source of aviation related information. Not all, but often, this information emerges from the discussion around accident causes & circumstances.
I find it unnecessary if contributors are ridiculed when their questions show lack of complete technical understanding. Hey, he was asking a question, and those who are in the know may respond!
It is understandable that those who are close to you, are closer to your heart, and the fate of those who are far away, stir lesser sympathy. That's just our human nature. But isn't it hypocritical to supress open discussion under the pretext of respect or military secrecy / code of honour just because the deceased are central European, while in cases of far-away incidents (read: Turkish, Asian, ...) the debates are boundless and don't refrain from - rightly or wrongly - patronising remarks about the safety or other culture in other countries?
Personally, I am not more or less affected by this accident than by any other aviation accident. Being a pilot myself, it is close to my heart even without having known the deceased. Therefore, I want to know what happened, in the interest of aviation safety and with the hope to be able to at least learn something from this tragedy. In this sense I would hope the open discussion on all technical and human/CRM aspects of the operation of the A400M as well as the accident sequence may continue.
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Hot and Hi
I am sure Trumpet Trousers will be more than happy to satisfy your curiosity as and when he feels the time is appropriate, until then lets just wait.
Best
John
I am sure Trumpet Trousers will be more than happy to satisfy your curiosity as and when he feels the time is appropriate, until then lets just wait.
Best
John
I'm starting to smell a rat
This was a civil aircraft, Type Certificated by the civil regulator: http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fil...4-17072013.pdf
This was not a military accident deserving of secrecy because it might give a foe advantage on the battlefield. It was crewed by civilian employees of the manufacturer's flight test organisation. Deference to those individuals on ths forum who may have personal connections with the unfortunate crew members should always be respected when there is an accident. However, respect does not warrant a blanket prohibition on discussion of the technicalities.
This is a civil industrial accident with potentially significant implications for aircraft design, manufacture and quality assurance. Secrecy can only feed unfounded speculation. Continued secrecy can only lead to more tears.
This was not a military accident deserving of secrecy because it might give a foe advantage on the battlefield. It was crewed by civilian employees of the manufacturer's flight test organisation. Deference to those individuals on ths forum who may have personal connections with the unfortunate crew members should always be respected when there is an accident. However, respect does not warrant a blanket prohibition on discussion of the technicalities.
This is a civil industrial accident with potentially significant implications for aircraft design, manufacture and quality assurance. Secrecy can only feed unfounded speculation. Continued secrecy can only lead to more tears.
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Reports of A400 Crash, Saville, Spain
Having read the vitriol directed at a number of posters on this thread so far I am somewhat worried about sticking my head above the parapet. The fact I feel like that is in itself a great pity.
Accidents occur in aviation and most of us have over the years been directly effected by such tragedies.
In days gone by there would always be a crew room discussion about potential causes and most of us would run through every conceivable eventuality. We would not wait for the board of inquiry before doing so.
Many different types of aircraft have commonality in the way their systems operate or even in the components used so any discussion about a problem on a particular type and the best way to deal with it inevitably has a read across and just might mitigate the outcome should something , however unlikely happen to someone else.
I therefore believe that it IS appropriate to discuss potential causes and possible reactions to any accident. Mainly because one day the ridiculous speculation on prune might turn out to be the unheard of problem that I now know the solution to.
Accidents occur in aviation and most of us have over the years been directly effected by such tragedies.
In days gone by there would always be a crew room discussion about potential causes and most of us would run through every conceivable eventuality. We would not wait for the board of inquiry before doing so.
Many different types of aircraft have commonality in the way their systems operate or even in the components used so any discussion about a problem on a particular type and the best way to deal with it inevitably has a read across and just might mitigate the outcome should something , however unlikely happen to someone else.
I therefore believe that it IS appropriate to discuss potential causes and possible reactions to any accident. Mainly because one day the ridiculous speculation on prune might turn out to be the unheard of problem that I now know the solution to.
twochai - the question might be did the aircraft have a civil or military registration? If may be wrong, but I beleive if on the mil register it's the Military authorities that are responsible.
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Yesterday in Madrid, we said an emotional goodbye to Jaime De Gandarillas, the Captain of CASA 423, who was tragically killed along with three others last weekend. Jaime was a devoted father, an extraordinary aviator, and a good friend. Along with Jesualdo, Gabriel, and Manu he will be sorely missed. Their work will go on, and we will uphold the sacred trust between test crews and those who fly and travel on our aircraft. Vaya con dios mi hermano...we will never forget.
hot and high, ASRAAM and Genstabler. Concur, thank you.
Yes I firmly get there was a terrible tragedy, and I no way mean any disrespect to anyone involved. I asked a simple systems related question, trying to better understand a system I am not familiar with. No disrespect, no speculation, no crazy theory, no agenda.
Discussions and questions happen around the globe, in crew rooms, around the coffee pot and yes on forums....but I guess no longer here. I was just talking with my co-workers here about this incident, one currently rated on Sikorsky products, one on a French derived product and we had an interesting talk on FADEC's, thrust levels, mechanical backups, etc. and we had an interesting, respectful, talk on design, procedures etc, but none of us fully understood the 400 systems.
Yes I firmly get there was a terrible tragedy, and I no way mean any disrespect to anyone involved. I asked a simple systems related question, trying to better understand a system I am not familiar with. No disrespect, no speculation, no crazy theory, no agenda.
Discussions and questions happen around the globe, in crew rooms, around the coffee pot and yes on forums....but I guess no longer here. I was just talking with my co-workers here about this incident, one currently rated on Sikorsky products, one on a French derived product and we had an interesting talk on FADEC's, thrust levels, mechanical backups, etc. and we had an interesting, respectful, talk on design, procedures etc, but none of us fully understood the 400 systems.
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I am sure Trumpet Trousers will be more than happy to satisfy your curiosity as and when he feels the time is appropriate, until then lets just wait.
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IMHO the wait for a cause should not take too long - it is common practice for the majority, if not all, test flights performed by ADS to have telemetry monitoring in realtime. This was the case with the subject flight.
twochai - the question might be did the aircraft have a civil or military registration? If may be wrong, but I beleive if on the mil register it's the Military authorities that are responsible.
It's a rumour network for heavens sake! If you don't like what is said, don't read it! If you want to write letters of condolence, write to the Times. I have no sympathy for people who suffer abuse on their "twitter" account, if you want to live in a glass house, don't be surprised if people throw stones.
One blackbox has been sent to L3.
A400M black box sent to US to seek crash clues: Sources - The Economic Times
A400M black box sent to US to seek crash clues: Sources - The Economic Times