Reports of A400 Crash, Saville, Spain
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From 2015 Seville A400M crash - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Several reports have suggested that as many as three of the aircraft’s four engines failed
during the A400M’s departure from Seville. Airbus is now examining whether the crash
was caused by new management software for the engine-fuel supply, designed to trim the
fuel tanks to permit the aircraft to fly certain military manoeuvres. There appears to have
been a trimming issue, leading to strong banking that was not recoverable and that the fuel
supply was re-established, but not quickly enough for recovery to safe flight.
Interesting, if true.
Several reports have suggested that as many as three of the aircraft’s four engines failed
during the A400M’s departure from Seville. Airbus is now examining whether the crash
was caused by new management software for the engine-fuel supply, designed to trim the
fuel tanks to permit the aircraft to fly certain military manoeuvres. There appears to have
been a trimming issue, leading to strong banking that was not recoverable and that the fuel
supply was re-established, but not quickly enough for recovery to safe flight.
Interesting, if true.
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In your defensive haste you have completely missed the actual point..
..the failure to ensure the fitness/quality of the software.....and you cannot dispute that.
..the failure to ensure the fitness/quality of the software.....and you cannot dispute that.
Oh and it was powered up not run.
Ergo, how long does the battery on your motherboard last?
I can see why folks on this thread worked so hard to prevent the mindless speculation that accompanies every other aircraft accident thread. This attack on another aircraft totally unrelated to the A400 accident is a fine example of such mindlessness where the aggressiveness of the position held is matched only by the ignorance.
Last edited by KenV; 20th May 2015 at 13:35.
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No. This thread is about a fatal accident and as such I will not debate idiotic semantics here.
We had a function that was more or less a manual override called "ECU lockout." This allowed the non flying pilot to use the power control lever to bypass the ECU / DECU / FADEC. The engines would be less responsive, sure, but they didn't lose fuel feed.
In the Airbus design philosophy (and for that matter in the Boeing philosophy) for transport aircraft, is there any way to override electronic control of the fuel feed to the engines and control them manually? Granted, it would be a back up mode, and likely not as fuel efficient.
Is it there?
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In the Airbus design philosophy (and for that matter in the Boeing philosophy) for transport aircraft, is there any way to override electronic control of the fuel feed to the engines and control them manually? Granted, it would be a back up mode, and likely not as fuel efficient.
Separately, may I ask what is a "power control lever" on the S-70 series aircraft? Is that a twist grip on the collective?
To answer your question: no twist grip on the S-70s. The engine control quadrant is a separate assembly in the cockpit, situated above and slightly forward of the center console, just higher than the pilots' heads. Its features include Power Control Levers (PCL's), emergency shutoff T-handles, fuel selectors (direct, crossfeed, off) starter buttons, etc.
Think of it like two engine throttles between two pilots, like in a lot of multi-engine aircraft, but located on the overhead panel. CH-53 has a similar configuration.
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The fuel supply was re-established, but not quickly enough for recovery to safe flight.
If the aircraft had been higher, the outcome may have been different.
BWM and KV: Thanks for the FADEC lesson
The crew positions of all 6 onboard, (and the names,) have been in the public domain for at least a week.
Last edited by Trumpet_trousers; 20th May 2015 at 14:13.
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To answer your question: no twist grip on the S-70s. The engine control quadrant is a separate assembly in the cockpit, situated above and slightly forward of the center console, just higher than the pilots' heads. Its features include Power Control Levers (PCL's), emergency shutoff T-handles, fuel selectors (direct, crossfeed, off) starter buttons, etc.
Think of it like two engine throttles between two pilots, like in a lot of multi-engine aircraft, but located on the overhead panel.
Think of it like two engine throttles between two pilots, like in a lot of multi-engine aircraft, but located on the overhead panel.
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The cited report is massively flawed.
Customers and operators are neither qualified nor even able to "check" the software embedded in any aircraft's control systems.
No, they can't. Electronic engine controls with no manual/mechanic backup have been around for multiple decades and are VERY reliable. Statements that the FADEC/ECU software may have been to blame for this accident are wildly speculative and baseless.
Airbus has asked its military customers to conduct checks of the software in the electronic control unit (ECU) of the engines.
I hope the crew can override any type of electronic engine control.
My read is that the problem is upstream of the engines and their FADECs
is this not so?
My understanding of FADECs in general is that their fail-safe mode "if" they go tits up, is to lock the fuel at the last known values according to aircraft sensors like speed,altitude and temperature.
and as for checking software throughout the fleet, might it be as simple as checking what software versions are displayed ?
I may have some questions but I don't know what the facts really are in this machine.
is this not so?
My understanding of FADECs in general is that their fail-safe mode "if" they go tits up, is to lock the fuel at the last known values according to aircraft sensors like speed,altitude and temperature.
and as for checking software throughout the fleet, might it be as simple as checking what software versions are displayed ?
I may have some questions but I don't know what the facts really are in this machine.
OK, that makes sense. Thanks for the feedback. But from what I'm gathering from your description it sounds like they are indeed like the power levers on a multi-engine fixed wing aircraft. So the pilot is not really controlling fuel flow, he is controlling engine RPM which in turn controls rotor RPM. In the jet (and multi-spool turbo prop aircraft) controlling RPM controls thrust. Fuel flow remains under the control of the ECU/FADEC.
In some ways, yes, you aren't using the throttle (PCL) to fine tune the fuel to the engines, since the HMU acts like a governor using thing like NR, Ng, P3, T2, to position the metering valve.
In the LockOut mode, none of the ECU/DECU signals get to the HMU. You are back to using a coarse governor to position the metering valve to get the fuel to the engine. Your NR will vary as you change load, which it doesn't tend to when the ECU/DECU is doing its thing.
Apologies for the digression, gents.
My initial question was answered.
@ Loma:
checking software throughout the fleet, might it be as simple as checking what
software versions are displayed
software versions are displayed
That's a guess, based on old maintenance experience.
A400 ECU alert
Airbus Press release today re A400:
Statement regarding Alert Operator Transmission (AOT) to A400M operators
Statement regarding Alert Operator Transmission (AOT) to A400M operators
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I wonder if this might turn any spotlights back on AF296 at Habsheim. I've always questioned how a distinguished captain with over 10,000 hrs could be suddenly so inept as to manage CFIT in good visibility. It couldn't possibly have been a systems fault after all could it......
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anengineer
Yes, you are right.
If one crash is due to a system failure, then all others on completely different types are almost certainly due to a system error also.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Yes, you are right.
If one crash is due to a system failure, then all others on completely different types are almost certainly due to a system error also.
Thanks for clearing that up.
Lonewolf_50:Ages ago, I operated T700 engines that used ECU's (and the new ones now have FADEC's, DECU's, and BFD sez I). Black Hawk / Sea Hawk / S-70 family of helicopters. The nice thing about ECU's and DECU's and FADECs is how well they tune/trim fuel flow to keep the engines running smoothly and at best efficiency.
We had a function that was more or less a manual override called "ECU lockout." This allowed the non flying pilot to use the power control lever to bypass the ECU / DECU / FADEC. The engines would be less responsive, sure, but they didn't lose fuel feed.
We had a function that was more or less a manual override called "ECU lockout." This allowed the non flying pilot to use the power control lever to bypass the ECU / DECU / FADEC. The engines would be less responsive, sure, but they didn't lose fuel feed.
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" If the aircraft had been higher, the outcome may have been different."
A statement that is applicable to practically every aircraft that has ever crashed.
A statement that is applicable to practically every aircraft that has ever crashed.
Oh well, you know what they meant . . .
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" If the aircraft had been higher, the outcome may have been different."
Ha ha, that occurred to me as well.