Possible new humanitarian/rescue operation coming up.

[Hangarshuffle]

Tourist, I don't know where to start either. Bearing in mind that the whole international offshore oil and gas industry regularly rotates its entire workforce er, every few weeks...er yes. An FPSO, under long term refit but still operational, with a daily working crew of 600 souls will rotate through entirely over a 30 day period-fact. And that's from South Atlantic offshore Angola. It would relatively easy for the present RN set up on Bulwark to rotate the ships company on a 42 dayer (that's 6 full weeks). And the benefits..do I spell them out again? You will have twice the number of people who experience a live operation (for future ops purposes and training experience value). People are regularly rested and that reduces levels of stress/family breakdowns.. I could go on and on.
On this specific task, offshore Libya, it would be very easy to rotate, using Malta as an airhead. With a civvy charter plane once a week. Bulwark is pretty lean manned anyway and its got what..250 odd onboard. Piece of cake.


As for me, mate my record is second to none. I did numerous long, long deployments all over the world and on very varying tempos, platforms...and I've often thought back how much better they could have done it if they had used a little less....little less balls to be honest.!


Just because we grinned and bared it back then doesn't mean they have to do the same now.
Don't tell me though - you're dead old and dead manly and could do these trips in your sleep! (How many did you do btw)?


Our traditional methods of operating/fighting/working are now losing us wars. We radically need to rethink our ways =others are. The Libyan warlords are playing an absolute blinder against the British at the moment. Think about how we have helped them achieve what they now have and are getting.


p.s. the RN aircrew are being rotated through on Bulwark (please tell me they are), otherwise someone's missing a trick here!


p.p.s. as someone kindly pointed out, subs/bombers use this system in our Andrew and we think the USN.


And also finally...topmast! This was exactly the kind of thing it was for, its it still functioning>?

[FODPlod]

Tourist - I feel your pain. I didn't know the Royal Navy had ready-use tins of worked-up ship and system specific personnel in sufficient numbers with the necessary ranks, SQs (Specialist Qualifications), expertise and liability for sea service available to be swapped around and take over its largest vessels mid-operation either. Apart from the odd bod from the ERP (Emergency Relief Pool) à la Topmast, it couldn't even do this in my time and I know even more billets are gapped these days.

The pool of offshore workers available 'on tap' is relatively inexhaustible by comparison. Subject to contract, they are 'hired and fired' as required.

[Tourist]

FOD

Glad it's not just me!

Hangar

Just to confirm. You are aware that the oil and gas industry are not a military force yes? In fact they have no points of overlap except for generally being surrounded by sea.

The Asda near my house has a shift system too. They are, however, frankly lacking in the ability to provide a range of Naval missions including but not limited to naval gunfire support or humanitarian missions.

ps. The bombers do not rotate crews through. They have two full crews. Both are fully worked up on the vessel. One is on board, one is not.

If you can find a fully worked up, type specific crew which has gone through all the FOST pre deployment training then awesome, but since that does not exist why not take a more mature view of things.

Your record, to judge from the intellectual level of your post, was not spent anywhere above the junior rates messdeck.

[Hangarshuffle]

No mate I fully disagree, after time and observation working within the offshore industry. Our systems work pretty well brilliantly- I'm talking about some highly skilled and able people here, with a similar back to back oppo who are on options of 1 month, some foreign nationals are on 90 days, its pretty variable and it works really well for the lads at the sharp end...keeps their wives happy, kids happy.Looking at the Navy, it needs to modernise itself to get used in the future to full crew changerounds and similar set ups when its on these long never ending drudgery deploys.. Otherwise the exodus of its people will just continue and will degrade much further...people wont wear that kind of life anymore-its a smaller more linked in world-young people know this. We used to do what we did because the people in charge had never done any different, and also due to an insane sort of machismo, and also parsimony of money...trust me Bulwark and all the like will work better on a slow rolling turnaround.


Looking at these new pictures, looks like these African lads will be in Britain long before any of the ratings get home anyway. See linky. Straight out the camp (its not guarded-craftily the eyties know where these lads are really heading and its not a life eating pasta!, Taxi to Rome, pay more cash to a villain and onwards to Calais, then blighty via truck smuggling. New life washing cars and getting girls up the duff.


Mediterranean migrants saved by Royal Navy journey through Europe to Britain | Daily Mail Online
Decision time again then for the politicians, and our hundreds of Admirals. They can continue picking up people and saving them, ferrying them to Italy and thus adding to the migrant problem in Europe and here.
They can cancel the operation and return home.
If they could gather together a coalition of the willing, use other European Navies and Coastguards to actually guard the med and return immediately any Africans back to Africa...
They thus need a safe port/compund in Libya. They need the Libyan Warlords on side (some of them).
Could trigger more fighting in turf wars.
My guess-too politically hot all around so the pick and drop off in Italy will occur indefinitely until Italy says no its had enough..

[Tourist]

Hangar

Your view is frankly infantile. To compare to offshore working shows a staggering lack of big picture awareness. I'm guessing I was right about the junior rates mess?

To operate effectively, a crew needs a workup. This would be impossible to achieve under your suggested system.

When a ship goes to FOST it improves until it is ready. It takes a lot of time and effort for the team to work together.

What do you think the point of all the enormously expensive JMC/Joint Warrior/Thursday war type exercises actually is!?!

As a complete aside, do you honestly think that this is a hard work deployment? You don't think they would prefer this to Joint Warrior or a South Atlantic deployment?

[Martin the Martian]

Considering that they are pulling ever increasing numbers of people out of unseaworthy boats, looking after their needs and transporting them to Sicily on a daily basis, and are doing this with no relief in sight, I would imagine they would happily do Joint Warrior or the South Atlantic as an alternative. At least there is an end date for those events, and it does actually involve doing the job for which they joined up for. Not sailing on the biggest lifeboat in the world. Perhaps we could paint Bulwark orange and blue the next time she stops off in Sicily to unload?

[FODPlod]

Originally Posted by Martin the Martian

...At least there is an end date for those events, and it does actually involve doing the job for which they joined up for...

Martin,

I joined up to say "Left hand down a bit", visit exotic places and meet lots of pretty girls.

I ended up doing all of this but I also helped fend off aircraft and missiles, rendered safe bombs, mines and other ordnance, changed propellers and sonar domes underwater, boarded fishing vessels, manned a Green Goddess, operated ROVs, helped evacuate refugees, fished bodies out of the water, helped put down an insurrection, chased pirates and smugglers, fought fires and staunched floods at sea, salvaged sinking ships, helped rebuild and decorate schools and hospitals after hurricane and volcanic eruption, etc. and spent eight or nine months at a time in defence watches (six hours on/six hours off as well as my daywork) with only short breaks in the routine while often having my homecoming delayed for pressing operational reasons. Towards the end of my time, I found myself driving various desks until the wee hours many miles from home. I wasn't particularly exceptional among my peers in this and wouldn't have changed any of it for the world.

What did you join up for?

[Martin the Martian]

Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'. It does appear to affect military personnel more, for sure, but I still say that Bulwark's crew are doing an unpleasant task for day after day with no relief in sight, with the knowledge that what they are doing will have absolutely no effect on the causes, and will not stop it happening. If anything it will only encourage it to happen more and more. It is June and I expect they'll still be doing it in September while the politicians continue to shake their heads sadly and wring their hands while the traffickers get richer and richer.

If that's acceptable, please say so.

[Chugalug2]

M&M:-

Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'.

Well, this anyone didn't know that. YLSNED, as Danny would say. Things have obviously moved on since my day. Way back when there was no contract of employment at all in the military, merely an attestation where you promised inter alia to carry out the (legal!) orders of your superiors. If that is still the case onboard HMS Bulwark then it is up to those very same superiors to ensure the maintenance of good order and discipline. I see no reason why they should not. Do you? It used to be called leadership, don't know what it's called now though.

[KenV]

p.p.s. as someone kindly pointed out, subs/bombers use this system in our Andrew and we think the USN.

USN ballistic missile subs have two crews.

The USN's new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) will probably be manned on a 3-2-1 ratio. 3 crews, for 2 ships, with 1 ship deployed at sea.

[FODPlod]

Originally Posted by Martin the Martian

Anyone in any job, civilian or military, will know that little sentence on the contract of employment 'and other duties as required'. It does appear to affect military personnel more, for sure...

Yes, it does rather, doesn't it? Have you read the bit about Offences against Military Law in the United Kingdom in Chapter 52 of the Armed Forces Act (2006)?

For example:

• Life imprisonment for mutiny (e.g. disobeying a lawful order), failing to suppress mutiny, misconduct on operations, obstructing operations, hazarding a ship, etc.
• Ten years imprisonment for misconduct (i.e. using violence against a superior officer or threatening behaviour or communication to a superior officer), disobeying lawful commands, etc.
• Two years imprisonment for misconduct (i.e. disrespectful behaviour or communication to a superior officer), absence without leave, contravening standing orders, failing to attend for, or perform, duty, malingering, etc.

Perhaps you might consider starting a trade union for military personnel to tie things in more with civilian life?

I was only jesting but having to do shi**y jobs or deploy for long periods without any certainty of a return date is known as 'Life in a Blue Suit' in the Royal Navy or, in more general parlance, taking the rough with the smooth. I didn't join up to march across Dartmoor or chip old paint off the foc'sle but I did it. By the same token, when I was told to fly ahead in the ship's helo on different occasions to plan visits to Guadeloupe and Curaçao in the West Indies because I spoke some schoolboy French, I did that too although, strictly speaking, it wasn't in my Terms & Conditions of Service. As it happened, the respective local consuls had organised the visits perfectly well on their own so I spent each of the preceding weeks in a Club Mediterranean.

Originally Posted by Ken V

USN ballistic missile subs have two crews.

The USN's new Littoral Combat Ship (LCS) will probably be manned on a 3-2-1 ratio. 3 crews, for 2 ships, with 1 ship deployed at sea.

RN SSBNs ('Boomers' in the USN, 'Bombers' in the RN) certainly have two crews but they are a very special case.

The US Navy has big bucks and is known for its manpower profligacy compared to the RN; just look at the respective complements of any similar vessels. Personnel constitute the greatest through-life cost of any ship and the RN would never countenance having three crews in order to maintain one at sea. With only 23,000 regulars and 250 full time reservists in the RN vice 326,000 regulars and 107,000 reserves in the USN, it is much too small for a start.

[FODPlod]

U

Originally Posted by Hangarshuffle

No mate I fully disagree, after time and observation working within the offshore industry. Our systems work pretty well brilliantly- I'm talking about some highly skilled and able people here, with a similar back to back oppo who are on options of 1 month, some foreign nationals are on 90 days, its pretty variable and it works really well for the lads at the sharp end...

"Back to back"? I'm intrigued.

Are you suggesting that each operational RN ship should have a 'spare crew', virtually doubling the size of the seagoing element. Would the 'spare crew' be twiddling its thumbs in barracks for 50% of the time, would it be paid to stay at home or would it be free to seek other interim employment as in the offshore industry? Would you pay it at all while not required or would you be happy doubling a ship's 'payroll' and providing all the other benefits involved? [cost]

Would each serviceman/woman, of whatever rank and worked-up ship/system-specific skill and experience, serve on a one month or 90 day option whereby you never know whether they are going to reappear when required? Do you seriously consider that disruptive change-overs of such personnel every six weeks over a nine month deployment is a viable option? [operational capability]

Would the relief crews or even individual personnel overlap with the old crews/personnel during their disruptive change-over or just be left to get on with it? If there is a proper overlap, where would the relief crews/personnel be fed and accommodated? [operational capability and cost]

Would a ship and its new crew conduct its costly and time-consuming FOST work-up in-theatre? If yes, where would the extra training staff come from, how would they travel and where would they be accommodated? [operational capability and cost]

If a ship has to return to the UK for its turnover/work-up mid-deployment, doesn't that rather defeat the object? [operational capability and cost]

Bearing in mind that, unlike in the offshore industry, there is no great pool of suitable personnel out there on which to draw, how would you maintain people's currency, sustain a consistent individual and unit training pipeline and manage people's career development, rank structure and promotion with appropriate higher training and qualifications? [operational capability and cost]

Would people have to pay for their expensive training and certification like in the offshore industry or are you suggesting the RN should provide it free? If the latter, what sort of return of service would you advise? [cost]

You're the one proposing such changes. I'm just curious how you would implement them without any damaging effect on operational capability or exorbitant extra cost.

[Hangarshuffle]

Well all those points you mention actually seem to work outside the RN y'know? People seem happier outside working like that. If Bulwark operates as it does, what's wrong with the Albion's ghost crew coming into the mix? i.e. operate two crews on the one platform?
Then you get two crews gaining a wide range of experience>useful if Albion ever has to be activated?
Or is the RN so run down now (which we all know it is really), this could not even be managed?
Like I said< at the top, I worry for the lads welfare, morale, wellbeing-even now. This whole op will continue until the politicians grow tired of it. Bulwark will be stuck trailing around now until when exactly?
HMS Ocean was in a terrible state when it completed its tasking offshore Libya. People were reduced to sleeping on the flight deck, AC and machinery had broken down..pretty miserable towards the end apparently...the RN in the 21st century. Do the people who are doing the donkey work deserve such derision?
I never forget the people who prop the RN up. They deserve the breaks, sometimes.
Civvy street offshore oil and gas industry is tough at times, be in no doubt, but we are so better treat and managed and paid in these matters...perhaps time now for the RN to really have a look at this, not just people to deride the simple suggestion? HS.

[FODPlod]

Originally Posted by Hangarshuffle

...what's wrong with the Albion's ghost crew coming into the mix? i.e. operate two crews on the one platform...

Maintain two crews to keep one ship at sea, virtually doubling the payroll? Much too costly.

I imagine HMS Albion's "ghost crew" comprises a couple of dozen ship-keepers mostly unsuited for sea service or any other 'active duty'. Even fewer of them, if any, would fulfil the necessary criteria (rank, specialisation, currency, medical fitness, liability for sea service, etc.) required to occupy a complement billet in the seagoing Bulwark. Moreover, even if the additional manpower were available, receiving an entire ship's company on board a 'dead ship' in return, let alone trying to provide it with gainful employment, would likely prove embarrassing. Finally, who would look after Albion during the disruptive six-weekly handover periods you suggest implementing on board the operational ship?

If Albion replaces Bulwark as fleet flagship in 2017 as planned, her ship's company will be built up and trained over a lengthy period as qualified personnel become available from various sources including Bulwark. The manpower does not exist to sustain both ships at sea simultaneously as operational units.

What will it take to convince you that there is a vast and irreconcilable difference between a publicly funded military service like the 100% core workforce Royal Navy operating at or below its critical mass and the "hire 'em, fire 'em" offshore industry with a highly paid core workforce of less than 40% and a relatively inexhaustible pool of temporary manpower from which to draw?

[KenV]

The US Navy has big bucks and is known for its manpower profligacy compared to the RN; just look at the respective complements of any similar vessels. Personnel constitute the greatest through-life cost of any ship and the RN would never countenance having three crews in order to maintain one at sea. With only 23,000 regulars and 250 full time reservists in the RN vice 326,000 regulars and 107,000 reserves in the USN, it is much too small for a start.

The reason for the multiple crews for the LCSs is they are very lightly manned. When at sea there is so much work that the crew can't take the work load very long. So every two ships has three crews. The work load is high in port also, but in port the ship's crew is augmented by shore personnel, some USN, some civilian contractor. And the LCSs have the highest sea time to port time ratio of any USN vessel. They are at sea a LOT.

[Hangarshuffle]

The missions coming to an end.

Seems inevitable. With hindsight Britain and its limited resource tried to do the right thing in rescuing the people, but simply became a conveyor.


http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...-Mediterranean

[Courtney Mil]

No link there, HS.

[dagenham]

we seem to be confusing cost with efficiency

If double crewing means the asset can be on patrol nearly double the time it might actually be efficient as it replaces purchasing and maintain two of " insert craft / vessel / item of choice "

I guess thats the reason the boomers operate this way - if the vessel can be turned around faster than crew rest or morale can be turned around, it makes financial sense to do double up and get it back to sea.

I will not interject on the issue of north sea as I have no experience, but I will say I mentioned this to Mrs Dagenham about having two wives, a younger fitter one to be trained up for when the older one is tired and it didn't go down to well. Apparently, my rating for single wife duties is on suspension......

[Courtney Mil]

From the reports in the press recently, it looks like the crew needs to spend more time maintaining their vessel and less time being worried about morale and being deployed, right, Hangarshuffle? I hope the guys from Babcock don't get too upset about having to go and sort out the RN's mess.

[Not_a_boffin]

CM

I assume you're referring to this.

Migrant crisis: Navy rescue ship HMS Bulwark breaks down due to too many migrants | UK | News | Daily Express

Aside from the fact that "stuff" breaks down from time to time, it may just be that supporting hundreds/thousands of people who are basically being transported on the upper deck and hence likely to need more frequent supplies of drinking water has put the margin beyond what one would normally tolerate - particularly towards the end of a deployment.

Hardly the RNs "mess".