Ex Service Personnel Excel
TOFO,
As an aside, and for what it is worth, the Romans actually looked after their retiring professional soldiers very well!!
I can provide supporting evidence if you'd like!
As an aside, and for what it is worth, the Romans actually looked after their retiring professional soldiers very well!!
I can provide supporting evidence if you'd like!
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That's certainly true, biggus. TOFO I very much agree with all the positives you presented re. Ex mil types. But the fact remains many ex military people DO encounter serious problems after they leave. Denying this or accusing proone of trolling for highlighting the fact does them a serious disservice.
The other end of the scale has problems too, caused by the high skill level of ex-mil types. HR runs a mile these days from people whose performance will show everyone else up, and who won't ignore dangerous and/or illegal practices.
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It must be tough for men who leave the Army and the Army cocoon, and step outside the gate for the last time and into the cold grey Britain of the day. I can easily see how you could end up sleeping in the streets and it always sends a shudder down me when I see these poor buggers, around London in particular.
A lot of lads were good guys but spent their time in the forces, I mean they spent their money on wine, women and song and leave with little in a material sense. It happens. If you have no family or network at that point, and limited skills then you could be really sunk.
On thread, sorry I have to say I have met people in the military, I truly wonder how on earth they got by back in civvy street, and where they ended up working. Some of the pompous Naval officers I worked with at Yeovilton (and in particular FONAC/FONA for Christ's sake, remember that mob), God help any civvy business or organization that took them on, is all I can say.
A lot of lads were good guys but spent their time in the forces, I mean they spent their money on wine, women and song and leave with little in a material sense. It happens. If you have no family or network at that point, and limited skills then you could be really sunk.
On thread, sorry I have to say I have met people in the military, I truly wonder how on earth they got by back in civvy street, and where they ended up working. Some of the pompous Naval officers I worked with at Yeovilton (and in particular FONAC/FONA for Christ's sake, remember that mob), God help any civvy business or organization that took them on, is all I can say.
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That's certainly true, biggus. TOFO I very much agree with all the positives you presented re. Ex mil types. But the fact remains many ex military people DO encounter serious problems after they leave. Denying this or accusing PPRuNe of trolling for highlighting the fact does them a serious disservice.
This thread is about service people excelling when they leave - which they do.
Pr00ne (not PPruNe) trolled it IMO by implying that this is not generally the case because of the large of troubled cases of ex -servicemen in society. I don't and never have disputed some sections of the military have problems fitting back in to civvy life. In terms of the overall number of people this affects against the overall number who excel when they leave, it is a tiny, tiny percentage...which it my mind makes his post mischief-making ie a troll.
If you want to have thread specifically about problems affecting ex-servicemen and women when they leave go ahead and start one...I'm sure it will be lively and interesting.
As would a debate on the Roman military
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Just as a tangential thought: I wonder how many of those ex servicemen who have found themselves in difficulties on leaving would have found themselves in difficulties had they never joined? Perhaps some sections of the armed forces attract certain psychological profiles.
I have no evidence for this, just thinking out loud.
I have no evidence for this, just thinking out loud.
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^^ Amongst other things that's kinda my point too. It's become very fashionable on social media for military types to promote each an every example of a servicemen gone wrong as an attack on the military covenant...I find this sad and misleading. Of course there are unfortunate cases, but they are rare. There are also cases that are just plain law breaking by bad asses - also rare.
I know personal experience means very little, but anyway...I know somewhere in the region of a thousand ex comrades who served with me...I don't know a single one that has ended up on the streets or in prison (I do know three that went to prison whilst they were still in, and rightly so). The vast majority are doing well - quite a few of them have very brightly burning stars.
Try and read beyond the headlines - be supportive when it a genuine hard luck story, not when is just some bad egg trying to play the victim. And keep perspective...the vast majority of servicemen and women do well when they leave for a reason...the reason is their military service has made them into who they are - top people.
I know personal experience means very little, but anyway...I know somewhere in the region of a thousand ex comrades who served with me...I don't know a single one that has ended up on the streets or in prison (I do know three that went to prison whilst they were still in, and rightly so). The vast majority are doing well - quite a few of them have very brightly burning stars.
Try and read beyond the headlines - be supportive when it a genuine hard luck story, not when is just some bad egg trying to play the victim. And keep perspective...the vast majority of servicemen and women do well when they leave for a reason...the reason is their military service has made them into who they are - top people.
I am ex air farce (rigger) and I think as others have alluded to - ex forces with a skill/trade/specialist knowledge should do ok in civvy street.
The company I work for employs fairly large numbers of ex forces - how they fare probably largely depends on their individual personalities rather than any forces skill set !
As others have alluded to - those with no trade/skills and or those with PTSD may well struggle and also as Thing posted - a percentage of those who struggle may well have done so anyway - with or without time in the forces
The company I work for employs fairly large numbers of ex forces - how they fare probably largely depends on their individual personalities rather than any forces skill set !
As others have alluded to - those with no trade/skills and or those with PTSD may well struggle and also as Thing posted - a percentage of those who struggle may well have done so anyway - with or without time in the forces
There are a couple of threads within this, err, thread.
One is about the ease (or otherwise) of SP moving into civilian jobs; the other is the issue of ex SP allegedly over-represented in Prison and homeless populations.
Let's look at the the first issue. Most ex SP quite happily manage the transition to civilian employment; additionally the transition assistance these days is pretty good - and flexible (unless you have the misfortune of serving in Germany). Furthermore, SP leaving are not some monolithic block of ex-Council Estate semi-literate 'Squaddies'. This bloc ranges from young soldiers just in their 20s to very senior, very experienced people, perhaps touching 60. No other industry would consider this as one target population.
On the second point of prison and homeless populations (and I have posted similar comments here before). I had a long chat with a very senior executive of a well-known Service charity, a year or two ago, about this issue. He believed that the figures were grossly inflated, due to a degree of opportunism. It is apparent that claiming to be ex-SP garners a degree of sympathy and support that one wouldn't receive if they were, say, ex truck drivers. Many of the homeless cases who claim to be ex SP are - perhaps a brief time in the TA, perhaps never completed basic training or left because of discipline or suitability issues. Same amongst the prison population, apparently.
That's not denying that there may be an issue and again, overwhelmingly, those who are legitimately ex Forces are overwhelmingly ex Army. Statistically this is likely; statistically, given the background of many of these people is that they are more likely to end up in prison if they had not been in the Army. I'm not saying that's right - it isn't, but it is a fact.
Again, if you come from a disrupted family background, with low familial expectations, poor performance at school, perhaps a history of petty crime and drug-taking before enlisting (accepted by recruiters these days) perhaps it isn't surprising that some - only some - might turn to criminal enterprise when they leave the Army. We should celebrate the social mobility that a career in the Forces offers. I can't think of any other career field that can offer such opportunities.
One is about the ease (or otherwise) of SP moving into civilian jobs; the other is the issue of ex SP allegedly over-represented in Prison and homeless populations.
Let's look at the the first issue. Most ex SP quite happily manage the transition to civilian employment; additionally the transition assistance these days is pretty good - and flexible (unless you have the misfortune of serving in Germany). Furthermore, SP leaving are not some monolithic block of ex-Council Estate semi-literate 'Squaddies'. This bloc ranges from young soldiers just in their 20s to very senior, very experienced people, perhaps touching 60. No other industry would consider this as one target population.
On the second point of prison and homeless populations (and I have posted similar comments here before). I had a long chat with a very senior executive of a well-known Service charity, a year or two ago, about this issue. He believed that the figures were grossly inflated, due to a degree of opportunism. It is apparent that claiming to be ex-SP garners a degree of sympathy and support that one wouldn't receive if they were, say, ex truck drivers. Many of the homeless cases who claim to be ex SP are - perhaps a brief time in the TA, perhaps never completed basic training or left because of discipline or suitability issues. Same amongst the prison population, apparently.
That's not denying that there may be an issue and again, overwhelmingly, those who are legitimately ex Forces are overwhelmingly ex Army. Statistically this is likely; statistically, given the background of many of these people is that they are more likely to end up in prison if they had not been in the Army. I'm not saying that's right - it isn't, but it is a fact.
Again, if you come from a disrupted family background, with low familial expectations, poor performance at school, perhaps a history of petty crime and drug-taking before enlisting (accepted by recruiters these days) perhaps it isn't surprising that some - only some - might turn to criminal enterprise when they leave the Army. We should celebrate the social mobility that a career in the Forces offers. I can't think of any other career field that can offer such opportunities.
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It's one thing to suggest the transition is difficult, and it can be, but it's another to stigmatise servicemen and women though generalisation creep.
Many emotional orphans are drawn to a life with the military family and that can suggest that people joining have a particular mindset at outset that doesn't help when rejoining the harsh reality of chivvy street. It's true too, that circumstances can create a massive hurdle to jump over (I was on gardening leave for 12 months and the assumption was that I was left to fester by the RAF before discharge).
There is almost entirely an entire charity sub-sector out there, 'helping' ex servicemen and pointing to stats to justify their employment. Much of it (not all, not by a long chalk) is complete bolleaux - the need is more a reflection on those hand rubbing professionals offering 'help' than on the intended, or trawled for, recipients. The flattening out means that those who genuinely do need the most care are overlooked and almost disadvantaged as they're stirred into the vanilla yoghurt with the more noisy and more mildly sick, lame and of course, the lazy.
I always thought that somewhere like Bicester would make a fabulous resettlement centre. I think too, that some ex servicemen and women have been too prescriptively and too sharply the focus of a dogma of 'helping' to get people back into civvy street . Some simply don't want to return to civvy street - what is so wrong with consideration of long term accommodating those who are more vulnerable and who feel more comfortable living within the structure of a military environment whilst still working in civvy street? The transition experts don't tend to look in shop doors at 0330.
Many emotional orphans are drawn to a life with the military family and that can suggest that people joining have a particular mindset at outset that doesn't help when rejoining the harsh reality of chivvy street. It's true too, that circumstances can create a massive hurdle to jump over (I was on gardening leave for 12 months and the assumption was that I was left to fester by the RAF before discharge).
There is almost entirely an entire charity sub-sector out there, 'helping' ex servicemen and pointing to stats to justify their employment. Much of it (not all, not by a long chalk) is complete bolleaux - the need is more a reflection on those hand rubbing professionals offering 'help' than on the intended, or trawled for, recipients. The flattening out means that those who genuinely do need the most care are overlooked and almost disadvantaged as they're stirred into the vanilla yoghurt with the more noisy and more mildly sick, lame and of course, the lazy.
I always thought that somewhere like Bicester would make a fabulous resettlement centre. I think too, that some ex servicemen and women have been too prescriptively and too sharply the focus of a dogma of 'helping' to get people back into civvy street . Some simply don't want to return to civvy street - what is so wrong with consideration of long term accommodating those who are more vulnerable and who feel more comfortable living within the structure of a military environment whilst still working in civvy street? The transition experts don't tend to look in shop doors at 0330.
Just as a tangential thought: I wonder how many of those ex servicemen who have found themselves in difficulties on leaving would have found themselves in difficulties had they never joined?
CG
I used to wear dress blues, I used to get my cues
from the dudes in D.C. with the wing tip shoes.
My boss said it was Parris or Prison and the judge said: "son you better make a decision."
I chose the former because I heard it was warmer,
from the dudes in D.C. with the wing tip shoes.
My boss said it was Parris or Prison and the judge said: "son you better make a decision."
I chose the former because I heard it was warmer,
I'm up to no good, with no place to go but down
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.. great lyric.
"We met as soul mates
On Parris Island
We left as inmates
From an asylum
And we were sharp
As sharp as knives
And we were so gung ho
To lay down our lives
We came in spastic
Like tameless horses
We left in plastic
As numbered corpses
And we learned fast
To travel light
Our arms were heavy
But our bellies were tight
We had no home front
We had no soft soap
They sent us Playboy
They gave us Bob Hope
We dug in deep
And shot on sight
And prayed to Jesus Christ
With all of our might
We had no cameras
To shoot the landscape
We passed the hash pipe
And played our Doors tapes
And it was dark
So dark at night
And we held on to each other
Like brother to brother"
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Some simply don't want to return to civvy street - what is so wrong with consideration of long term accommodating those who are more vulnerable and who feel more comfortable living within the structure of a military environment whilst still working in civvy street?
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Fair point - I didn't express myself well, I meant post career. We have scores of decent barrack blocks in unused, well situated sites that could offer the type and feel of sheltered and structured housing that many ex servicemen and women want. They don't want to, or benefit from, being flung into sheltered housing in towns and cities where they are almost compelled, because of social services imperitive and political dictat, to live with people with whom they have nothing in common, who they want to have nothing to do with and where they do not flourish.
Got a violent misfit? Take him out of normal society, and train him to be violent to people we don't like - makes a lot more sense phrased that way!
(n.b., this certainly used to be the approach when Britain had an empire)
(n.b., this certainly used to be the approach when Britain had an empire)
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Al R, good points well made.
Certainly when I joined up I had chiefs who were given the choice when they were young men of Borstal or the forces. Or as one said to me 'I chose the forces but I'm sure they sent me to Borstal.'
Take him out of normal society, and train him to be violent to people we don't like
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TOFU: "I think you've lost the thread old chap...this thread is about service people excelling.."
Au contraire, TOFU, If anything it's you who has lost sight of what a discussion forum is; somewhere to debate and argue for and against a particular point. Disagreeing isn't trolling.
Au contraire, TOFU, If anything it's you who has lost sight of what a discussion forum is; somewhere to debate and argue for and against a particular point. Disagreeing isn't trolling.