Ex Service Personnel Excel
 

Or so says Tony Ward, Force10 Recruitment and Doncaster College and University Centre Governor (no, I don't know either). He might have added, "Very few left, get them now or miss out".

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-e...0ZWCY8RFD8fmA1

Er, if that's the case why are so many of them homeless, destitute or in prison?
By a far greater percentage than ex forces folk constitute of the population.

Something not right...

Some even become lawyers :eek:

Roadster280,

Yep, and it's in that capacity that I try to help.

Got a problem with that?

proone:-
I agree, and I suggest that the 'Something not right...' is that too many employers have no experience of, or know no-one with experience of, Service life and values. On the contrary, too many perhaps have been weened on the Peaceniks' agenda of being 'against war' and those whose duty it is to conduct it.
Leaving the RAF after a mere 13+ years, the culture shock that I experienced was not helped by being accused of being a mercenary and a hired killer by a couple who were friends of friends. That they were both teachers was purely incidental I guess...anyway, that was way back in the 70's, so it's quite different today I guess, isn't it? Isn't it?

Civvies are expected by their management to always have one eye on their next job, it's seen as disloyal when you serve though. Consequently, two days resettlement briefing and some rather prescriptive training linked to what you did is pretty pointless and quite possibly immoral. I wanted to become a roof thatcher, a dry-stone waller or a stockbroker and consequently, left with the offer of erm, no help.

The Americans pre-release screen for things like PTSD and that's how it should be. Although I worry that we sometimes polarise things and either over emphasise negative stereotypes or eulogise, we can run the risk of stigmatising ex servicemen when the problems have already manifested themselves. The culture of preparing our men and women for civvy street should begin when they join, not just before they leave.

To which you replied, with menacing stare: "You shouldn't speak like that to people you don't know!" :cool:

Anyone else remember that awful "Access to Excellence" video of 1993! I have a copy, but no VHS player now. Shame......................

perhaps you could give your post a little credibility with a link continuing some viable statistics.

It sounds like complete arse to me, but I'm happy to be proved wrong.

pr00ne,

You know as well as I do that it was a cheap dig at you. But I know you can take it, because you are ex-forces, the same as me, and it's a skill we acquired in our service.

For the record, no, I have no problem with that, and if your posts are helpful, thank you. For the ones that aren't, well, there's always the cheap dig :ok:

Basil:
All sorts of replies come to mind, but SWMBO was sitting opposite and taking it out on my shins under the dining table as an encouragement to change the subject!

You are right of course, they were foolish to mess with a highly decorated (1 GSM) cold war hero, but that rather makes AlR's point that stereotypes ill serve anyone, be they serving, ex-Service, or civilians alike.

I think "compliant" would be more accurate.
Along with the old "can do" forces personnel are open to manipulation by unscrupulous managers.
Usually the managers with the narcissistic personality defect....


:(

TOFO,

I have heard comments similar to those posted by pr00ne before, reference the number of ex military in prison, homeless, etc...

A very quick internet search produced this:

Why so many ex-soldiers end up in prison

If you go about the 7th paragraph it says that about 1 in 10 prisoners is an ex soldier.

A similar 1 in 10 statistic quoted here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...-after-2071049

How accurate these articles are, I couldn't say.

Used to be said (not many years ago), not sure how valid now, that one in four people on the streets in London were ex-services

It’s not quite as simple as Mr Ward suggests. There are certainly occasions when an ex-services person will be the ideal candidate, but there are just as many occasions when the military ethos is a major disadvantage in the commercial world. In terms of individual drive, being results driven and giving one’s all, military training is excellent preparation but that is not the whole story. Often in the commercial world you are forced to work with people many grades above you who are not burdened down with a massive intellect or a comprehensive understanding of the task, but to point this out only makes the situation worse. If you have no concept of playing politics with subordinates or superiors, it will often bite you at annual review time. A bit like those of us who used to think “Bloggs does not suffer fools gladly” was a compliment, instead of realizing it meant you were self-serving and intransigent.

In my experience, the smaller and more agile the organization, the easier it is to utilize previous military experience. People who run or control their own businesses often have a much more focused view on how to exploit the capabilities of an employee, and the employee can see the benefits of their contribution more readily than if they were in a large corporation. It really is horses for courses in most cases, which is why I shudder as the sweeping generality that ” …employing Ex Military personnel is great for business”. Did Mr Ward never meet an absolute tool in the military, because I know I did. Transition to civvy street would not have improved any of these dullards, only voluntary euthanasia could have really helped them. Some people really were truly career limited at whatever rank they made it to, and nothing in the commercial world will ever change that.

Some of my sharpest colleagues are and have been prior military, and some of the people who have been moved on have also been prior military. Like most of life it comes down to the individual and how they choose to exploit and sell the valuable skills the military invests in them. It’s always going to come down to the interview or the recommendation, hiring somebody solely on the strength of prior service is a gamble I would be unwilling to take. Mr Ward isn't totally wrong, but he is wrong to think “Ex military” is a valid employment group without further and extensive qualification.

While I think "Two's In"'s comments are perfectly valid regarding the variability of individuals in the armed forces, I don't believe that Tony Ward is saying anything that doesn't apply to the majority of servicemen with long and good service records. I don't believe that he is overstating the case.

My list of what one is less likely to experience with ex-service people is long but here's a few;

1. Clock watching.
2. Marking time.
3. Turning up but not contributing
4. Avoiding issues
5. Passing the buck
6. Dissent and internal disturbance

I have employed a lot of ex-services over the years (I am one myself). Yes I have had some regrets, but on the whole I have been very satisfied with their application to the task and their willingness to learn new skills rather than just bluff their way forward. Sometimes they will be more forthright in their opinion than a civilian equivalent, but the origins of that are probably prior necessity of circumstances, and I would rather have someone say what they think than avoid responsibility for an impending train wreck...

FWIW

Don't reply to him you fool! He's charging £200 per minute for his responses to you:eek:

rmac,

I'll give you 6; other than a few grumbles I haven't really seen much in the way of internal disturbance in my career. But the others are unfortunately alive and well in a lot of military personnel!

In terms of clock watching, we've all been on a squadron where face time was the order of the day. I've seen units that work people to the bone, and when not required to fly or carry out additional duties, there was still a blanket "be in 0800-1700" rule. Modern businesses are finding out in their droves that this isn't an effective way to manage people. Your capable worker who can pour out staff work at 70 words per minute just starts to resent it; being graded and measured by time in work, rather than work produced! Cue lots of clock watching.

4 and 5 are absolutely rife nowadays. With the degree of competitiveness for decent flying jobs and/or promotion, I find myself working with lots of people who are terrified of making a mistake or being seen to make one.

People are right that the decisiveness and drive you need to do well in the military will serve you well outside. If you're trained to make near-instant, life or death decisions as an aviator, well, that always sounds good at an interview! There's a lot of dross still in, though, in some places; and the sad thing is it's them who tend to stay in...!

The Independent has done quite a bit of campaigning for ex servicemen and women. From yesterday:

Homeless Veterans Appeal: Stephen Fry backs The Independent's campaign - Homeless Veterans - Campaigns - The Independent

Hey Biggus,

thanks for the links...I read them both.

Leaving aside the contention over the statistics and that both sides have vested interests, I'll willingly agree that young soldiers leaving in their twenties after combat ops will be vulnerable to economic hardship and all that that entails (including crime). Why that should be a surprise to anyone would be a mystery to me...and much of it would be to do with their expectations and education before they joined up. Half a dozen years as an over worked, over exposed fighting soldier is not really going to add anything to their economic value when they leave is it?

I think this is red-herring (and therefore a troll by pr00ne) because...

It is specific to tradeless young soldiers, not the wider military (OK, somebody will find and exception, but you get my point).

And, the thread is about the value that quality that highly trained servicemen and women (ie most of us) bring to the commercial world...which is exactly in line with my experience.

Since we have dived down this rabbit hole, could I point out that casting aside ones fighting soldiers has been going since the Romans invented professional armies and is is hardly unique to the UK. Does not make it right though.