What a waste, what a fool.
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Sad to see, no doubt there are underlying problems that have caused this guy to go a bit wild, and the Forces should do all they can to help him.
However, would any of you really be happy to get into the back of an aircraft that is being flown by someone who has openly bragged about taking class A drugs (or any drugs for that matter, inc booze if it is still in your system), possibly at low level & possibly in a combat zone?
As members of the forces, and involved in aviation, we have a duty to each other to be at the top of out game, certainly as a maintainer & licenced engineer I would not be willing to jeopardise an aircraft through impairment of substance abuse, or tolerate colleagues who would. Military aviation is dangerous enough without avoidable dangers, we all know the rules when we sign on the dotted line.
However, would any of you really be happy to get into the back of an aircraft that is being flown by someone who has openly bragged about taking class A drugs (or any drugs for that matter, inc booze if it is still in your system), possibly at low level & possibly in a combat zone?
As members of the forces, and involved in aviation, we have a duty to each other to be at the top of out game, certainly as a maintainer & licenced engineer I would not be willing to jeopardise an aircraft through impairment of substance abuse, or tolerate colleagues who would. Military aviation is dangerous enough without avoidable dangers, we all know the rules when we sign on the dotted line.
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I cant think of a better way of avoiding a 12 month PVR time than publicly doing coke, especially with a frigid blunty audience! Not saying its right however, if you wanted to get out in less than three months (fitness test fails), no better way than publicly doing what he did.
Perhaps given a job he wasnt happy with?
Personally would go as a concientious objector, rather than destroying career.
Perhaps given a job he wasnt happy with?
Personally would go as a concientious objector, rather than destroying career.
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That thought had entered my head as well that he just wanted out.
I have seen it before as a civi and I was none to happy with the way the guy did it.
He was all set up for a top telecoms job and it was to start in 3 months.
He was a sigs scaley with some special training in packet switching and some special system which was the reason he was hired.
He put in to get out but because he was one of the few that had been through the course for it and he had a return of service they were saying 18months plus.
So he beat the crap out of a blanket stacker WO1.
Took a month to process, one month in colchester and then out the door to start his 100k a year job via 2 weeks in Cyprus
My main beef was that he did the guy some serious damage with a detached retina, and if he had any balls he should have gone and smacked one of the infantry WO1's or Engineer ASM's.
I did say that we shouldn't take him but was overruled because he had a rocking horse poo skill set.
I have seen it before as a civi and I was none to happy with the way the guy did it.
He was all set up for a top telecoms job and it was to start in 3 months.
He was a sigs scaley with some special training in packet switching and some special system which was the reason he was hired.
He put in to get out but because he was one of the few that had been through the course for it and he had a return of service they were saying 18months plus.
So he beat the crap out of a blanket stacker WO1.
Took a month to process, one month in colchester and then out the door to start his 100k a year job via 2 weeks in Cyprus
My main beef was that he did the guy some serious damage with a detached retina, and if he had any balls he should have gone and smacked one of the infantry WO1's or Engineer ASM's.
I did say that we shouldn't take him but was overruled because he had a rocking horse poo skill set.
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Just out of interest does he lose his pension, I think we had this before but cannot remember the answer.
I had an acquaintance who was CID with quite a few years in,(like 20 odd) he was a bit over friendly with a traffic officers wife.
They got him for drink driving and from what I remember he lost everything.
Interesting thought that he may have wanted to bang out in this case but surely not if he loses the pension
I had an acquaintance who was CID with quite a few years in,(like 20 odd) he was a bit over friendly with a traffic officers wife.
They got him for drink driving and from what I remember he lost everything.
Interesting thought that he may have wanted to bang out in this case but surely not if he loses the pension
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BEags, Flying Lawyer......
The article posted is from The Daily Fail. They are known for sensationalism and changing what people have said to them in interviews, completely.
If this guy took drugs and drank excessive amounts of alcohol, and got in the cockpit the very next day (or even the same day), I will have a very different opinion as not only is he putting himself at risk, he's risking his crew and those on the ground. From what I can see, he is a party animal who took his excessive partying in to the work place, got caught, and lost everything for it. He was stupid, not necessarily a bad person. We don't even know if he did all of this "on a school night", he might have had a couple of days off.
Personally, I don't entertain drugs. I don't like them, I like to be in complete control of myself and the situation around me, I don't even like being drunk. Although I am not about to go around judging those who do use these substances when it might not be harming anybody else.
I think that's the last I'll say on the matter to avoid a conflict of interests.
The article posted is from The Daily Fail. They are known for sensationalism and changing what people have said to them in interviews, completely.
If this guy took drugs and drank excessive amounts of alcohol, and got in the cockpit the very next day (or even the same day), I will have a very different opinion as not only is he putting himself at risk, he's risking his crew and those on the ground. From what I can see, he is a party animal who took his excessive partying in to the work place, got caught, and lost everything for it. He was stupid, not necessarily a bad person. We don't even know if he did all of this "on a school night", he might have had a couple of days off.
Personally, I don't entertain drugs. I don't like them, I like to be in complete control of myself and the situation around me, I don't even like being drunk. Although I am not about to go around judging those who do use these substances when it might not be harming anybody else.
I think that's the last I'll say on the matter to avoid a conflict of interests.
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Sad to see, no doubt there are underlying problems that have caused this guy to go a bit wild, and the Forces should do all they can to help him.
Personally never tried any drugs and never wanted too, my life satisfies me as it is without any chemical assistance, well bar the odd wine and beer.
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Jonw,
I think once past ipp what you earn you keep. I don't think you can have your pension penalised for indiscretion past the point at which end a defined contribution is earned.
I think once past ipp what you earn you keep. I don't think you can have your pension penalised for indiscretion past the point at which end a defined contribution is earned.
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Yes thanks Vin rouge do you think it would be the same in the police force.
I am sure he lost everything for being a 'keen gentleman' with somebodies wife.
Plus obviously the drink driving bit which he had asked for to a degree.
Cheers
Jon
I am sure he lost everything for being a 'keen gentleman' with somebodies wife.
Plus obviously the drink driving bit which he had asked for to a degree.
Cheers
Jon
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I know of a policeman who was about 4 years short of his pension, he had a heavy session the night before and as he had tons of paperwork to catch up on, so was doing that, his inspector ordered him out in a car, followed him and breathalysed him, he lost the lot. Personally as you pay into a pension fund, the portion you pay in should be returned to you as it is your money, not theirs.
..
..
Last edited by NutLoose; 11th Dec 2014 at 08:44.
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Yeah I agree with you Nutty however you f up in your later years to me it is money earned not something to punish you with.
In a long serving police officers position you are talking a lot of money.
The guy I am talking about his oppo retired with about £150k, plus the monthly couple of grand at fifty then carried on working doing the same job.
Anyway sod coppers I'm off to bed.
In a long serving police officers position you are talking a lot of money.
The guy I am talking about his oppo retired with about £150k, plus the monthly couple of grand at fifty then carried on working doing the same job.
Anyway sod coppers I'm off to bed.
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mad_jock
There may well be some countries and areas of operation where, as you say, pilots of this man's considerable skill and experience will be like gold dust etc and his conviction will make no difference.
Elsewhere, the conviction may cause him more problems than you believe.
It is true that, in most circumstances, the spent conviction provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act apply. NB: Only in the UK.
Removal from the service (whether dismissal with disgrace or simple dismissal) is subject to a rehabilitation period of 1 year beginning on the date of conviction.
However, there are exceptions to the usual provisions which recognise that there are certain activities for which fuller disclosure of a someone’s criminal record history is relevant. Those exceptions include occupations (and some hobbies) for which a licence is required.
Where an exception exists, applicants are not entitled to rely upon the spent conviction provisions and an employer or licensing body will be eligible for a disclosure certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service (formerly the Criminal Records Bureau) containing details of all unprotected cautions and convictions. (Certain old and minor cautions and spent convictions are protected from disclosure.)
I have not checked but, given that licensed taxi drivers are not entitled to rely upon the spent conviction provisions, I'd be surprised if professional pilots are.
Visa requirements (questions asked) re travel to another country are a matter for the country concerned. They are not bound by the UK's spent convictions provisions.
I hope the pilot concerned will be flying again in due course. It would be very sad if his entire career was permanently ruined.
SHornet
If he wasn't discharged from the service and/or was not in unlawful possession of Class A drugs then much of what has been posted in this thread is irrelevant and he would have a strong case for substantial damages against the newspaper.
In the meantime ....
No-one has said he is a "bad person". That is not the issue.
One would be more serious conduct than the other in a service context, but both would be criminal/service offences.
You are entitled to your view about people taking illegal drugs. It is not a view taken by any of our three services in relation to service personnel.
My previous query still stands.
There may well be some countries and areas of operation where, as you say, pilots of this man's considerable skill and experience will be like gold dust etc and his conviction will make no difference.
Elsewhere, the conviction may cause him more problems than you believe.
It is true that, in most circumstances, the spent conviction provisions of the Rehabilitation of Offenders Act apply. NB: Only in the UK.
Removal from the service (whether dismissal with disgrace or simple dismissal) is subject to a rehabilitation period of 1 year beginning on the date of conviction.
However, there are exceptions to the usual provisions which recognise that there are certain activities for which fuller disclosure of a someone’s criminal record history is relevant. Those exceptions include occupations (and some hobbies) for which a licence is required.
Where an exception exists, applicants are not entitled to rely upon the spent conviction provisions and an employer or licensing body will be eligible for a disclosure certificate from the Disclosure and Barring Service (formerly the Criminal Records Bureau) containing details of all unprotected cautions and convictions. (Certain old and minor cautions and spent convictions are protected from disclosure.)
I have not checked but, given that licensed taxi drivers are not entitled to rely upon the spent conviction provisions, I'd be surprised if professional pilots are.
Visa requirements (questions asked) re travel to another country are a matter for the country concerned. They are not bound by the UK's spent convictions provisions.
I hope the pilot concerned will be flying again in due course. It would be very sad if his entire career was permanently ruined.
SHornet
The article posted is from The Daily Fail.
In the meantime ....
No-one has said he is a "bad person". That is not the issue.
We don't even know if he did all of this "on a school night", he might have had a couple of days off.
You are entitled to your view about people taking illegal drugs. It is not a view taken by any of our three services in relation to service personnel.
My previous query still stands.
Last edited by Flying Lawyer; 11th Dec 2014 at 01:28.
FL asked:
Not really. Due to changes in society's tolerance of homosexuality, which at that time did not include the Armed Forces, applicants were reminded of this and it was their reaction to this position which was required. Some answers would have shocked Himmler, but more often it was "I'm not interested in what they do, but it's not for me". Although one wag did actually say "I don't mind lesbians, provided I can watch!" - no doubt having been briefed by existing ULAS students.......
It wasn't really a problem, but it was a mandatory interview question during my QFI time. All changed on 'Pink Wednesday' though.
'Trouble with Plod' was more a case of assessing honesty - unless chummy had really been up to no good in his/her earlier days.
Were there a 'PC approved' answer to Q3?
It wasn't really a problem, but it was a mandatory interview question during my QFI time. All changed on 'Pink Wednesday' though.
'Trouble with Plod' was more a case of assessing honesty - unless chummy had really been up to no good in his/her earlier days.
Last edited by BEagle; 17th May 2017 at 14:29.
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Final word from me...
His pension should be secure - he will be eventually admin discharged and that carries the same pension abatement as a PVR. [disclaimer, that was the case 10 years ago anyway]. I believe the plods have different rules - but I'm nae certain.
And armed with that information, uncertain job prospects at least in the short term and probably the need to unwind, if you are reading this matey, I suggest a lengthy holiday cum early retirement in somewhere warm & friendly. Maybe Pattaya?
His pension should be secure - he will be eventually admin discharged and that carries the same pension abatement as a PVR. [disclaimer, that was the case 10 years ago anyway]. I believe the plods have different rules - but I'm nae certain.
And armed with that information, uncertain job prospects at least in the short term and probably the need to unwind, if you are reading this matey, I suggest a lengthy holiday cum early retirement in somewhere warm & friendly. Maybe Pattaya?
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FL I can only comment from what I have seen working as a pilot and also having to deal with this for a group of pilots.
Obviously I will bow to your legal expertise.
But...
There is only a requirement for a basic disclosure for a pilot, no requirement for any enhanced which would disclose any spent convictions.
Taxi drivers I believe require a enhanced because it involves them transporting children and vulnerable adults in an unsupervised environment. Pilots its is very rare they are in that position. It does happen very occasionally with umins but it may never happen to some and those of us in regional ops it may happen but it will be years between it happening.
Also the statement that having a criminal record will immediately mean that you won't get an airside pass is also untrue in the UK at least.
Apparently you can shag a sheep get caught do some prison time and the next day your out you can get a airside pass.
I have worked as a pilot with people that have done time. Varying crimes
Some motoring offenses and getting caught with the wife taking the points right the way through to GBH of a burglar caught in the act. To contempt of court.
The asking questions about a spent criminal record is in the same league as asking a woman about if she is going to get pregnant in the next couple of years. Unless you are in one of the occupations that are listed as being required to have an enhanced disclosure your on dangerous expensive ground.
But to be honest all but one pilot had actually disclosed to the employer anyway that they had been inside. And they have all been good employees and actually I would say above average pilots.
I am not saying that it will be plain sailing for the person but it won't be the huge show stopper that some would like to think will happen.
When working outside the UK in Europe you are required to give a standard 5 year employment history and a basic CRC check as you are in the UK.
Outside that things vary. He more than likely though will never be able to go to the US ever which may give problems training.
Again this all depends what they have put it through as. If the charges don't mention drugs and he has been done on a mil only sounding offense they may ignore it.
I know this won't sit well with some but its the fact of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months time if he is training Arabs earning double what he did in the RAF.
Obviously I will bow to your legal expertise.
But...
There is only a requirement for a basic disclosure for a pilot, no requirement for any enhanced which would disclose any spent convictions.
Taxi drivers I believe require a enhanced because it involves them transporting children and vulnerable adults in an unsupervised environment. Pilots its is very rare they are in that position. It does happen very occasionally with umins but it may never happen to some and those of us in regional ops it may happen but it will be years between it happening.
Also the statement that having a criminal record will immediately mean that you won't get an airside pass is also untrue in the UK at least.
Apparently you can shag a sheep get caught do some prison time and the next day your out you can get a airside pass.
I have worked as a pilot with people that have done time. Varying crimes
Some motoring offenses and getting caught with the wife taking the points right the way through to GBH of a burglar caught in the act. To contempt of court.
The asking questions about a spent criminal record is in the same league as asking a woman about if she is going to get pregnant in the next couple of years. Unless you are in one of the occupations that are listed as being required to have an enhanced disclosure your on dangerous expensive ground.
But to be honest all but one pilot had actually disclosed to the employer anyway that they had been inside. And they have all been good employees and actually I would say above average pilots.
I am not saying that it will be plain sailing for the person but it won't be the huge show stopper that some would like to think will happen.
When working outside the UK in Europe you are required to give a standard 5 year employment history and a basic CRC check as you are in the UK.
Outside that things vary. He more than likely though will never be able to go to the US ever which may give problems training.
Again this all depends what they have put it through as. If the charges don't mention drugs and he has been done on a mil only sounding offense they may ignore it.
I know this won't sit well with some but its the fact of it.
I wouldn't be surprised if in 6 months time if he is training Arabs earning double what he did in the RAF.
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Typhoon 93 said silly things until they were banned.
SHornet said more rediculous things and got banned.
I'm going to keep my eye out for a new poster called 'Antonov An24'
See what I did there
SHornet said more rediculous things and got banned.
I'm going to keep my eye out for a new poster called 'Antonov An24'
See what I did there
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To be honest there is a sizable amount of the population with a criminal record.
The rest of us probably should have one for something.
I know I can't put my hand on my heart and say I shouldn't have a criminal record.
But should I really be prevented from working for having say changed an electrical socket in a kitchen?
Because in theory getting done for that and getting fined would bar me from getting an airside pass in the UK. But shagging a sheep wouldn't.
The rest of us probably should have one for something.
I know I can't put my hand on my heart and say I shouldn't have a criminal record.
But should I really be prevented from working for having say changed an electrical socket in a kitchen?
Because in theory getting done for that and getting fined would bar me from getting an airside pass in the UK. But shagging a sheep wouldn't.
Forgive me if this has already been mentioned - i've not read all the posts.
If this guy was to consider a civvie career, then criminal record checks etc would not be his only hurdle.
He'd have to convince medical branch that he was fit to be issued a medical certificate. Not unheard of for someone with a "history" but certainly not a straightforward task.
If this guy was to consider a civvie career, then criminal record checks etc would not be his only hurdle.
He'd have to convince medical branch that he was fit to be issued a medical certificate. Not unheard of for someone with a "history" but certainly not a straightforward task.
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I have an enhanced disclosure because of my working role, but I was surprised to see the list's parameters in respect of airline flying etc.
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ibility_v6.pdf
https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ibility_v6.pdf
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Regarding the issue of low use in a social environment etc, the charge and CM will only cover what can be proven. If there had been any friendly, non-documented, interviews without coffee then that would never be admitted.
A friend was CMd for flying indiscipline. The charge stated a speed of approximately 349kts. Above 350 would have been a further offence but was not provable. See the point? We only know what came out in the DM or CM if you looked.