RAF Sidearms
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I think the idea was to fire a pencil using a blank cartridge, not a ball round! Blank 9mm ammo could be obtained from captured German soldiers on exercises and was much prized as it could give those not in the know a nasty fright!
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The 9mm was a peach. I once had to approach an RQMS at Vitez garage and request a resupply of a mixture of ammunition. He smirked at his mates and asked me what had happened to the rounds I needed replacing. I told him we had been in an incident in the ZOS at White Fang (CAS mates might remember that one.. near IP Portugal maybe?) east of Sanski Most.
He put his feet on his desk and asked me for the empty cases. I had had enough at that point and told him that if he wanted them that badly, he was quite welcome to borrow my torch and get off his warm arse and go into the minefield and look for them. Martin Bell was there, and one of his camera team volunteered footage of the contact. That seemed to do it. I had to write out and sign a lost kit form though.
He got his own back on New Year's Eve. When I later approached him for a resupply of stuff like toilet paper, he asked how many was in the team. 4, I said. He nodded thoughtfully. Calculating that each man would only need to ablute once a day, over the course of a week that meant we only needed half a roll. He counted the individual squares out too.. seperately.
He smiled at me, I smiled at him and life moved on.. it was the little things. Happy days!
He put his feet on his desk and asked me for the empty cases. I had had enough at that point and told him that if he wanted them that badly, he was quite welcome to borrow my torch and get off his warm arse and go into the minefield and look for them. Martin Bell was there, and one of his camera team volunteered footage of the contact. That seemed to do it. I had to write out and sign a lost kit form though.
He got his own back on New Year's Eve. When I later approached him for a resupply of stuff like toilet paper, he asked how many was in the team. 4, I said. He nodded thoughtfully. Calculating that each man would only need to ablute once a day, over the course of a week that meant we only needed half a roll. He counted the individual squares out too.. seperately.
He smiled at me, I smiled at him and life moved on.. it was the little things. Happy days!
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that pencil up the spout trick has killed a few.
Our PSI who was ex Falkland's and other things said that if he ever heard of one of us doing it he would hunt us down and break both our index fingers so that someone else had to wipe our arses for the next 4 weeks.
I to be perfectly honest I don't think he was joking. He didn't joke about these things including removing the pistol grip off a SMG for room clearing purposes. Which he even showed us with live ammo. Seemed quite effective to be honest with a full clip and it lobbed round a doorway with the working parts held back.
Our PSI who was ex Falkland's and other things said that if he ever heard of one of us doing it he would hunt us down and break both our index fingers so that someone else had to wipe our arses for the next 4 weeks.
I to be perfectly honest I don't think he was joking. He didn't joke about these things including removing the pistol grip off a SMG for room clearing purposes. Which he even showed us with live ammo. Seemed quite effective to be honest with a full clip and it lobbed round a doorway with the working parts held back.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards.
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the old BFA's for the SLR were a bit dangerous as well.
Must a have seen 5-6 of them come off. Only one of them causing injury which was quite serious as it hit someone in his kidney from about 5 m away.
Must a have seen 5-6 of them come off. Only one of them causing injury which was quite serious as it hit someone in his kidney from about 5 m away.
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The kidney shot was an ND to add insult to injury on a patrol and the person firing had just tripped. And it fired when they landed on there face in a load of peat with there Bergen on top.
The DS didn't actually go mental on that one. Something to do with the safety catch was deemed slack and the BFA had fatigued fractured leaving the attachment still on the gat.
Just bad luck it managed to hit him in about the only exposed bit of his back from the side. If he had actually pointed it at him it would have hit his bergan. But it was a combination of the bloke in front turning with the fall behind and the gat going off. But it was the end of his military career with one kidney removed. We couldn't work out how it hit him where it did with webbing and bergan on.
What did they do with the SLR's after they changed to the SA80? Sold or scrapped?
The DS didn't actually go mental on that one. Something to do with the safety catch was deemed slack and the BFA had fatigued fractured leaving the attachment still on the gat.
Just bad luck it managed to hit him in about the only exposed bit of his back from the side. If he had actually pointed it at him it would have hit his bergan. But it was a combination of the bloke in front turning with the fall behind and the gat going off. But it was the end of his military career with one kidney removed. We couldn't work out how it hit him where it did with webbing and bergan on.
What did they do with the SLR's after they changed to the SA80? Sold or scrapped?
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
MJ, bit of a flap one Taceval at ISL. Intruders had SLR with BFU, our ground crew just had SLR. When the enemy was captured they shared out the blanks and happily blazed away without BFU s.
As for not aiming at anyone, easy to say and harder to do in the heat of the moment. In fact you have to aim deliberately away from the target, you can't Fire indiscriminately.
As for not aiming at anyone, easy to say and harder to do in the heat of the moment. In fact you have to aim deliberately away from the target, you can't Fire indiscriminately.
At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards. - PN
Reminds me of the tale of the guy who was so proud of his CCF Lee Enfield Mark III with the silver band round the muzzle - until he discovered that the silver band meant that his rifle should not be used to fire blanks......
Jack
Reminds me of the tale of the guy who was so proud of his CCF Lee Enfield Mark III with the silver band round the muzzle - until he discovered that the silver band meant that his rifle should not be used to fire blanks......
Jack
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There is bits of metal and powder come out the front with blanks with a BFA/BFU. We got a demonstration using a bit of card at 6ft with one fired without a BFA on. It certainly isn't just hot air that comes out of them there were quite a few holes in the card. I remember them calling them Blank Firing Applicator or some such.
Anyway in my day it was the old school methods of weapon training and it went
1st transgression was a mild shouting at.
2nd huge bollocking.
3rd punch to the face.
But to be fair I can't remember anyone being gash with handling weapons. And there was very few punches handed out and those that were on the receiving end all seemed to deem it a fair cop and for their own good.
One 2lt that got posted in spent quite a lot of time running around with his rifle above his head due to technicality's about assaulting an officer. We all thought we would prefer the punch to be honest.
The idiot left in in the bogs one day, we didn't see him again after that. He may well be at the bottom of a earth toilet. And there was actually a phase 4 of the punishment ladder when Geordie really lost his temper.
Anyway in my day it was the old school methods of weapon training and it went
1st transgression was a mild shouting at.
2nd huge bollocking.
3rd punch to the face.
But to be fair I can't remember anyone being gash with handling weapons. And there was very few punches handed out and those that were on the receiving end all seemed to deem it a fair cop and for their own good.
One 2lt that got posted in spent quite a lot of time running around with his rifle above his head due to technicality's about assaulting an officer. We all thought we would prefer the punch to be honest.
The idiot left in in the bogs one day, we didn't see him again after that. He may well be at the bottom of a earth toilet. And there was actually a phase 4 of the punishment ladder when Geordie really lost his temper.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Which was why, I guess, RCAF packed a small hunting rifle. Quite who was the Hunter I am not sure.
The film showed our survivor shoot and skin a deer. The pelt was stretched over a frame and then scrapped. Next he used the deer' s brains to cure it.
I guess time to rescue was measured in weeks
The film showed our survivor shoot and skin a deer. The pelt was stretched over a frame and then scrapped. Next he used the deer' s brains to cure it.
I guess time to rescue was measured in weeks
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Interesting to hear people speak so highly of the Browning 9mm.
Quite frankly, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with it (unless I threw it) - and yet I was subsequently quite OK with pieces like the Colt 45 and Ruger 357.
It was suggested that the ammo we were issued at the time was left over from WWII.
BTW, interesting to hear about the firing-pin propelled pencil.
Interesting to hear people speak so highly of the Browning 9mm.
Quite frankly, I couldn't hit the side of a barn with it (unless I threw it) - and yet I was subsequently quite OK with pieces like the Colt 45 and Ruger 357.
It was suggested that the ammo we were issued at the time was left over from WWII.
BTW, interesting to hear about the firing-pin propelled pencil.
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Pencils... pah
The real weapon of war was a good old 25 pounder, a couple of bog rolls for the use off and a thunderflash inserted into the breach... they would clear the hangar roof nicely..
The real weapon of war was a good old 25 pounder, a couple of bog rolls for the use off and a thunderflash inserted into the breach... they would clear the hangar roof nicely..
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Stanwel there were Brownings and brownings.
I spent 3 days checking and servicing the general issue ones.
They were in awful order working parts slack just in tolerances when drifting the barrels.
Now these were the ones people signed out and weren't allocated to individuals.
The individual personal weapons. Those a thick idiot like me never got near they were signed over personally to the staff sgt and only he worked on them. If they were even slightly out they had new parts and those parts would then go into the general issue ones when they eventually failed.
To keep them sweet you apparently needs to fire them at least every 3-4 weeks. For those left in the Staffys care he did this for them until they could reclaim them. It was something to do with the gun metal sweating. I am sure nutloose knows more about it than I do. I was just the dicked help when the stupid old fart managed to belt his thumb in the door of the machie wagon.
I suspect those that most of us shot were the general issue things which have an extremely hard life with nobody really looking after them.
I spent 3 days checking and servicing the general issue ones.
They were in awful order working parts slack just in tolerances when drifting the barrels.
Now these were the ones people signed out and weren't allocated to individuals.
The individual personal weapons. Those a thick idiot like me never got near they were signed over personally to the staff sgt and only he worked on them. If they were even slightly out they had new parts and those parts would then go into the general issue ones when they eventually failed.
To keep them sweet you apparently needs to fire them at least every 3-4 weeks. For those left in the Staffys care he did this for them until they could reclaim them. It was something to do with the gun metal sweating. I am sure nutloose knows more about it than I do. I was just the dicked help when the stupid old fart managed to belt his thumb in the door of the machie wagon.
I suspect those that most of us shot were the general issue things which have an extremely hard life with nobody really looking after them.
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Naaaa.... me engines
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Mad jock ... You're quite right. Some of the general pool were rattling bags of bolts. Neglected would be the understatement of the decade, as they were chucked into an ammo tin for conveyance to the Range for some random shooting and even worse cleaning.
Before I started buying my own, I had the fortune to be at a certain RAF Stn that held all the 'notional War stock' personal pistols for MoD officers ... Over 300 of them. With the cooperation of the SNCO i/c (a fellow Bisley shooter) I was allowed to trawl through the racks, and finally picked 3 good ones. They were then re-racked for my 'personal use'. I was then allowed to use the workshop to fettle them, which surprised the young armourers in there as this senior officer set to work with Arkansas stones and similar implements, after first fashioning from sheet copper the appropriate hold-back device (as per EMERs) to assist in stripping the hammer group. I was, of course, a paid up member of the Armoury coffee swindle
Dear Roger ... I suspect you may be long gone. A very nice man indeed.
Before I started buying my own, I had the fortune to be at a certain RAF Stn that held all the 'notional War stock' personal pistols for MoD officers ... Over 300 of them. With the cooperation of the SNCO i/c (a fellow Bisley shooter) I was allowed to trawl through the racks, and finally picked 3 good ones. They were then re-racked for my 'personal use'. I was then allowed to use the workshop to fettle them, which surprised the young armourers in there as this senior officer set to work with Arkansas stones and similar implements, after first fashioning from sheet copper the appropriate hold-back device (as per EMERs) to assist in stripping the hammer group. I was, of course, a paid up member of the Armoury coffee swindle
Dear Roger ... I suspect you may be long gone. A very nice man indeed.
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At school we had bulleted blank for our Brens; no aiming at any one and no one closer than 30 yards.
At my establishmant in Kenya (the Patch), there were a few instances of 'minor injuries' caused by bulleted blanks - normally these were deliberate acts
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
It was also frequently alleged that the KP GSU used hem in 'Riot Control'
At my establishmant in Kenya (the Patch), there were a few instances of 'minor injuries' caused by bulleted blanks - normally these were deliberate acts
PZU - Out of Africa (Retired)
It was also frequently alleged that the KP GSU used hem in 'Riot Control'
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What was that firing them regularly all about then?
Or did he just use it as an excuse to blat some rounds off?
BTW I was monkey see monkey do, then make a cup of tea for the master and repeat. To be honest I quite enjoyed my time with him and learned loads.
Mind you I have always liked doing something productive like that, cardboard boxs full of assorted ****e turned into something that at least looks the part.
Or did he just use it as an excuse to blat some rounds off?
BTW I was monkey see monkey do, then make a cup of tea for the master and repeat. To be honest I quite enjoyed my time with him and learned loads.
Mind you I have always liked doing something productive like that, cardboard boxs full of assorted ****e turned into something that at least looks the part.
For the enthusiastic amateur civvie who may be reading this thread, what level of markmanship is expected to with these pistols? I'm guessing targets would be at 10, 20 and 30m? (or more likely yards )
My own limited ability (at ranges in the US and ZA) struggles to hit the target at 30m.
My own limited ability (at ranges in the US and ZA) struggles to hit the target at 30m.