Wind Turbines & Mil Ac Issues
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Wind Turbines & Mil Ac Issues
All,
I am wondering if anybody has been involved in opposing the construction of wind turbines in their part of the country. I am specifically looking to see if there is a generic issue with mil ac.
There is currently an application pending for a wind turbine to be constructed about 1 mile from Salisbury plain and approximately 500 m from Cley Hill. Those of you in the Herc & Rotor world wil know this location as you fly around it on a daily basis!
Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.
I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.
Any guidance you may have would be welcome.
Jamesman
I am wondering if anybody has been involved in opposing the construction of wind turbines in their part of the country. I am specifically looking to see if there is a generic issue with mil ac.
There is currently an application pending for a wind turbine to be constructed about 1 mile from Salisbury plain and approximately 500 m from Cley Hill. Those of you in the Herc & Rotor world wil know this location as you fly around it on a daily basis!
Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.
I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.
Any guidance you may have would be welcome.
Jamesman
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I am a consultant in environmental issues and very opposed to wind turbines. I was instrumental in halting a massive proposed project here on our island. I do not think the danger to low flying a/c will work as a lever. It is no different to radio masts etc. It would just get marked up on charts and put into nav systems.
Good luck.
Good luck.
So what's the issue with them? They can't be any worse than a long line of pylons surely?
I see plenty of them on my daily commute; don't even notice them these days.
Stands by for incoming.
I see plenty of them on my daily commute; don't even notice them these days.
Stands by for incoming.
windturbines
There was a proposal a few years ago to build a large windfarm site some 8 miles to the west of RAF Marham---from experience I know that MOD planners had to be consulted due to the possible interference to the radar head--we have had some of the smaller tubines put up in the same local(ish) area where there were no MOD objections---There was a similiar plan for a large scale develpment in the Snettisham area which is roughly to the North of Marham and the MOD were part of the planning process for the same consideration--neither proposal went ahead but it was a long battle by the inhabitants of both areas--
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I'm very sceptical about the argument for wind turbines on both financial and aesthetic grounds. But is there an air safety case? Are they really more hazardous than the tens of thousands of aerials, chimneys, masts and pylons that dot/blight the landscape.?
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Are they really more hazardous than the tens of thousands of aerials, chimneys, masts and pylons that dot/blight the landscape.?
These are all stationary. Blades on windmills move. Is there a difference in (e.g.) radar returns?
There is currently an application pending for a wind turbine to be constructed about 1 mile from Salisbury plain and approximately 500 m from Cley Hill. Those of you in the Herc & Rotor world wil know this location as you fly around it on a daily basis!
Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.
I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.
Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.
I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.
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There is a department within the MOD that deals exclusively with responding to planning applications for wind turbines and wind farms. Depending on if any of the ‘trigger factors’ are realised in a planning application the local authority is legally obliged to consult the MOD and ascertain whether they intend to object or otherwise. That is not to say that they automatically object to every proposal, quite the opposite, each case is rigorously researched and considered before responding to the local authority. I’m pretty sure they never object on ‘aesthetic’ grounds.
In your case I imagine that given the location of the proposal the MOD will be consulted (depending on the size of the proposed turbine).
In your case I imagine that given the location of the proposal the MOD will be consulted (depending on the size of the proposed turbine).
Last edited by fabs; 19th Jun 2014 at 13:42.
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We had an issue near where I lived in Suffolk when I was based in the UK. A farmer leased land to one of the energy speculators involved in windfarms and they intended to put up half a dozen or so within 200m of some houses. The Flying hazard argument was discounted early on. In the end it was noise and intrusion that won the day. To those who ask what the problem is, I quite like seeing the windmills here in France but that's because they are located on hills far away from people or next to Motorways. Up close, they are big b*****s and they make quite a lot of noise. If they are so efficient, I'd say use oil taxation to build more giant farms off the coast where no one is going to be worried about it...apart from the environmental effect on the lesser spotted sprat of course.
JAMESMAN please send me a PM.
Immediate action is to ensure that the application is called in by your local councillor once a formal planning application has been made. Failing to do so means that the application can be dealt with by delegated powers and you will not be able to present a personal objection. The application will be dealt with by planning officers using written evidence only. We have suffered from this locally.
As has been said the MOD has a safeguarding unit at Harrogate which is consulted on all wind turbine issues. I have contacted them more than once pointing out that the proliferation of wind turbines in our area which is a low flying area is potentially dangerous. They have never objected yet, even though the current planned turbines are 400 feet in an area where aircraft are cleared down to 250 (200?).
The only objections from the MOD that I have seen are on radar interference grounds and more recently where one turbine was to be sited on a low flying route choke point. This latter objection was upheld and planning permission refused.
We successfully opposed a wind turbine at our local airfield by citing the fact that it was on the turn between downwind and base leg at a height that would be dangerous particularly in bad weather. We are currently awaiting the plannning inspectorate report on another site where a developer has applied to put a turbine less than a 100m from the end of an established runway. We are hopeful that this application will also be rejected.
If you can demonstrate that the turbine will be dangerous to aircraft approaching an airfield particularly in bad weather remembering that the 500 foot rule does not apply during the takeoff and landing phase ( Also remembering that altimeter error within limits can bring an aircraft even lower) you may have a good case.
There has been one case in Europe of an aircraft hiting a turbine in bad weather (lucky to survive) and more than one in the USA. Aviation safety can be a strong card if played correctly.
Immediate action is to ensure that the application is called in by your local councillor once a formal planning application has been made. Failing to do so means that the application can be dealt with by delegated powers and you will not be able to present a personal objection. The application will be dealt with by planning officers using written evidence only. We have suffered from this locally.
As has been said the MOD has a safeguarding unit at Harrogate which is consulted on all wind turbine issues. I have contacted them more than once pointing out that the proliferation of wind turbines in our area which is a low flying area is potentially dangerous. They have never objected yet, even though the current planned turbines are 400 feet in an area where aircraft are cleared down to 250 (200?).
The only objections from the MOD that I have seen are on radar interference grounds and more recently where one turbine was to be sited on a low flying route choke point. This latter objection was upheld and planning permission refused.
We successfully opposed a wind turbine at our local airfield by citing the fact that it was on the turn between downwind and base leg at a height that would be dangerous particularly in bad weather. We are currently awaiting the plannning inspectorate report on another site where a developer has applied to put a turbine less than a 100m from the end of an established runway. We are hopeful that this application will also be rejected.
If you can demonstrate that the turbine will be dangerous to aircraft approaching an airfield particularly in bad weather remembering that the 500 foot rule does not apply during the takeoff and landing phase ( Also remembering that altimeter error within limits can bring an aircraft even lower) you may have a good case.
There has been one case in Europe of an aircraft hiting a turbine in bad weather (lucky to survive) and more than one in the USA. Aviation safety can be a strong card if played correctly.
Last edited by ericferret; 19th Jun 2014 at 13:16.
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The fact that a proposed wind turbine sits in a low flying area isn’t necessarily a threat to flight safety on it’s own. The aircraft captain may be authorised down to 250ft MSD (or lower). If said turbine is marked clearly on charts/maps and there are no other factors (like the aforementioned low flying choke point or airfield safeguarding criteria) then the aircraft captain is to avoid that obstacle by 250ft. If there is an identified danger to MOD aircraft by this proposal then the MOD will certainly object.
I wish you well in your campaign but I wouldn’t necessarily rely on the flight safety argument alone.
I wish you well in your campaign but I wouldn’t necessarily rely on the flight safety argument alone.
Wind turbines can and do interfere with primary surveillance radars. That is why there is a Transponder Mandatory Zone around Thanet and the London Array - the TMZ allows ATC to use its SSR instead of primary radar. There is also a consultation running (check the CAA website) on a TMZ over a chunk of the Irish Sea near Liverpool to mitigate the effects of the turbines (290m blade height!) on Warton's PSR.
This is an issue that affects civ and mil airspace users.
This is an issue that affects civ and mil airspace users.
Scottish judiciary have just upheld a ruling that allowed the MoD to veto some wind turbines on hills near the radar heads on the Hebrides. If you google Hebrides and MoD/windfarm you should find the recent story.
Chap up the road from me had a medium sized one installed about 4 years back. I approached the company who installed it with a view to having the same. Plans were quite advanced, agreements drawn up etc, when the company backed out. Apparently Culdrose (in whose MATZ our properties both lie) were intending to object to all turbines above a certain size in the area, on the radar interference grounds already referred to, so my plan for a nice little £5k pa addition to my pension came to nought. When we enquired about how my neighbour's one got through, Culdrose had apparently objected too late, and weren't going to get caught on the hop again.
Funny thing is there is a much bigger wind farm with half a dozen large turbines just a few miles South of Culdrose - that seems to got through ok without interfering with the radar, but what do I know? Mrs TTN was pleased, though, she never really wanted it anyway.
Funny thing is there is a much bigger wind farm with half a dozen large turbines just a few miles South of Culdrose - that seems to got through ok without interfering with the radar, but what do I know? Mrs TTN was pleased, though, she never really wanted it anyway.
I'd doubt that the rotation speed of a wind turbine would cause a radar problem.
When using the Argosy (RR Dart engines) for flight calibration, I recollect we had a prop RPM range to avoid due harmonic re-radiation of part of the ILS signal interfering with the accuracy of our technicians' instruments.
The restriction did not apply when flying a normal ILS.
When using the Argosy (RR Dart engines) for flight calibration, I recollect we had a prop RPM range to avoid due harmonic re-radiation of part of the ILS signal interfering with the accuracy of our technicians' instruments.
The restriction did not apply when flying a normal ILS.
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Afternoon all
I assume you are all aware the a Swedish Company (Vattenfaal??) is proposing a massive wind farm at Nocton Fen running out towards Bardney.
I wonder if they realise that it falls with in the Coningsby (possibly) and Waddington (more likely) MATZs.
Not to mention the low flying route which runs down the Lincolnshire wolds past Bardney, and out over the edge of Metheringham.
And add to that on days when the visibility is bad Coningsby's finest often fly around/over the village of Branston next to Waddington
I never got a reply when pointing this out
V1
I assume you are all aware the a Swedish Company (Vattenfaal??) is proposing a massive wind farm at Nocton Fen running out towards Bardney.
I wonder if they realise that it falls with in the Coningsby (possibly) and Waddington (more likely) MATZs.
Not to mention the low flying route which runs down the Lincolnshire wolds past Bardney, and out over the edge of Metheringham.
And add to that on days when the visibility is bad Coningsby's finest often fly around/over the village of Branston next to Waddington
I never got a reply when pointing this out
V1
Jamesman -
1. Can you please post the name of the Planning Authority (the Council) or a ref number so interested parties can look it up in detail.
2. I refer you to the Bullington Cross windfarm application that Winchester, Test Valley and Basingstoke Councils jointly refused last week. Allegedly MoD objected. EDF are expected to appeal.
BBC News - Bullington Cross wind turbine plan rejected at joint meeting
Hampshire wind farm refused over MoD concerns | Planning Resource
Planning Committee on 16 June 2014 10:00 AM ? Winchester City Council
This last link leads to detailed "Committee Reports."
I tried to find the definitive council website pages for more specific details of the application, but they all use user unfriendly software processes which makes it difficult for nosy gits – and I don't think they've updated anyway.
3. I was astounded to see that the Reading Green Park (single) wind turbine is claimed to have an historic operating efficiency record of just 17% of its full capacity and generates less electricity value than the subsidies paid to it in addition. A triumph of optimism over reality perhaps ?
4. I am told the Rule of Thumb says 5 - 15 - 25 metres per second windspeeds give you "start generating" – "reach rated power" and "stop generating" windspeeds for current wind turbines.
LFH
1. Can you please post the name of the Planning Authority (the Council) or a ref number so interested parties can look it up in detail.
2. I refer you to the Bullington Cross windfarm application that Winchester, Test Valley and Basingstoke Councils jointly refused last week. Allegedly MoD objected. EDF are expected to appeal.
BBC News - Bullington Cross wind turbine plan rejected at joint meeting
Hampshire wind farm refused over MoD concerns | Planning Resource
Planning Committee on 16 June 2014 10:00 AM ? Winchester City Council
This last link leads to detailed "Committee Reports."
I tried to find the definitive council website pages for more specific details of the application, but they all use user unfriendly software processes which makes it difficult for nosy gits – and I don't think they've updated anyway.
3. I was astounded to see that the Reading Green Park (single) wind turbine is claimed to have an historic operating efficiency record of just 17% of its full capacity and generates less electricity value than the subsidies paid to it in addition. A triumph of optimism over reality perhaps ?
4. I am told the Rule of Thumb says 5 - 15 - 25 metres per second windspeeds give you "start generating" – "reach rated power" and "stop generating" windspeeds for current wind turbines.
LFH
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Valiantone, living near Coningsby and miles from Nocton Fen and Bardney, I would be staggered if the farm got anywhere near the Coningsby MATZ. The north-south corridor I give would be close but probably no issue.
Rather than protesting against a wind farm near my unit, our help was sought by the Bicker Fen people who assumed that as a source of low flying complaints in their area we would protest against the wind farm. Of course, as pointed out, they are easy enough to avoid.
Rather than protesting against a wind farm near my unit, our help was sought by the Bicker Fen people who assumed that as a source of low flying complaints in their area we would protest against the wind farm. Of course, as pointed out, they are easy enough to avoid.
Originally Posted by Basil
I'd doubt that the rotation speed of a wind turbine would cause a radar
problem.
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I am a consultant in environmental issues and very opposed to wind turbines. I was instrumental in halting a massive proposed project here on our island. I do not think the danger to low flying a/c will work as a lever. It is no different to radio masts etc. It would just get marked up on charts and put into nav systems.
Good luck.
Good luck.
"Speaking at the Chatham House foreign affairs think-tank in London, Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Russia was mounting a sophisticated disinformation campaign aimed at undermining attempts to exploit alternative energy sources.....
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