Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Wind Turbines & Mil Ac Issues

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Wind Turbines & Mil Ac Issues

Old 19th Jun 2014, 08:30
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Army territory
Age: 56
Posts: 26
Wind Turbines & Mil Ac Issues

All,

I am wondering if anybody has been involved in opposing the construction of wind turbines in their part of the country. I am specifically looking to see if there is a generic issue with mil ac.

There is currently an application pending for a wind turbine to be constructed about 1 mile from Salisbury plain and approximately 500 m from Cley Hill. Those of you in the Herc & Rotor world wil know this location as you fly around it on a daily basis!

Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.

I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.

Any guidance you may have would be welcome.

Jamesman
jamesman is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 09:06
  #2 (permalink)  
Registered User **
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Botswana & Greece
Age: 66
Posts: 940
I am a consultant in environmental issues and very opposed to wind turbines. I was instrumental in halting a massive proposed project here on our island. I do not think the danger to low flying a/c will work as a lever. It is no different to radio masts etc. It would just get marked up on charts and put into nav systems.

Good luck.
Exascot is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 09:54
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Next to Ross and Demelza
Age: 51
Posts: 1,171
So what's the issue with them? They can't be any worse than a long line of pylons surely?

I see plenty of them on my daily commute; don't even notice them these days.


Stands by for incoming.
Martin the Martian is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 09:58
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Wisbech, cambs
Posts: 5
windturbines

There was a proposal a few years ago to build a large windfarm site some 8 miles to the west of RAF Marham---from experience I know that MOD planners had to be consulted due to the possible interference to the radar head--we have had some of the smaller tubines put up in the same local(ish) area where there were no MOD objections---There was a similiar plan for a large scale develpment in the Snettisham area which is roughly to the North of Marham and the MOD were part of the planning process for the same consideration--neither proposal went ahead but it was a long battle by the inhabitants of both areas--
Dave Sharpe is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 10:42
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
I'm very sceptical about the argument for wind turbines on both financial and aesthetic grounds. But is there an air safety case? Are they really more hazardous than the tens of thousands of aerials, chimneys, masts and pylons that dot/blight the landscape.?
ShotOne is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 11:22
  #6 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Japan
Age: 70
Posts: 204
Are they really more hazardous than the tens of thousands of aerials, chimneys, masts and pylons that dot/blight the landscape.?
These are all stationary. Blades on windmills move. Is there a difference in (e.g.) radar returns?
Yamagata ken is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 11:39
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Asia Pacific
Age: 51
Posts: 1,900
There is currently an application pending for a wind turbine to be constructed about 1 mile from Salisbury plain and approximately 500 m from Cley Hill. Those of you in the Herc & Rotor world wil know this location as you fly around it on a daily basis!

Apart from advising on NOTAMs, is there anybody who has come across this issue and what arguments have been put up to stop them being built.

I know this is often a thorny issue, but whilst I agree with renewable, these ugly edifices are surely not the way forward across our countryside.
is the potential impact on parachuting the way forward?
minigundiplomat is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 12:38
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK sometimes
Posts: 134
There is a department within the MOD that deals exclusively with responding to planning applications for wind turbines and wind farms. Depending on if any of the ‘trigger factors’ are realised in a planning application the local authority is legally obliged to consult the MOD and ascertain whether they intend to object or otherwise. That is not to say that they automatically object to every proposal, quite the opposite, each case is rigorously researched and considered before responding to the local authority. I’m pretty sure they never object on ‘aesthetic’ grounds.
In your case I imagine that given the location of the proposal the MOD will be consulted (depending on the size of the proposed turbine).

Last edited by fabs; 19th Jun 2014 at 13:42.
fabs is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 12:44
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South of France
Posts: 1,035
We had an issue near where I lived in Suffolk when I was based in the UK. A farmer leased land to one of the energy speculators involved in windfarms and they intended to put up half a dozen or so within 200m of some houses. The Flying hazard argument was discounted early on. In the end it was noise and intrusion that won the day. To those who ask what the problem is, I quite like seeing the windmills here in France but that's because they are located on hills far away from people or next to Motorways. Up close, they are big b*****s and they make quite a lot of noise. If they are so efficient, I'd say use oil taxation to build more giant farms off the coast where no one is going to be worried about it...apart from the environmental effect on the lesser spotted sprat of course.
strake is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 12:58
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: England
Posts: 1,352
JAMESMAN please send me a PM.

Immediate action is to ensure that the application is called in by your local councillor once a formal planning application has been made. Failing to do so means that the application can be dealt with by delegated powers and you will not be able to present a personal objection. The application will be dealt with by planning officers using written evidence only. We have suffered from this locally.

As has been said the MOD has a safeguarding unit at Harrogate which is consulted on all wind turbine issues. I have contacted them more than once pointing out that the proliferation of wind turbines in our area which is a low flying area is potentially dangerous. They have never objected yet, even though the current planned turbines are 400 feet in an area where aircraft are cleared down to 250 (200?).

The only objections from the MOD that I have seen are on radar interference grounds and more recently where one turbine was to be sited on a low flying route choke point. This latter objection was upheld and planning permission refused.

We successfully opposed a wind turbine at our local airfield by citing the fact that it was on the turn between downwind and base leg at a height that would be dangerous particularly in bad weather. We are currently awaiting the plannning inspectorate report on another site where a developer has applied to put a turbine less than a 100m from the end of an established runway. We are hopeful that this application will also be rejected.

If you can demonstrate that the turbine will be dangerous to aircraft approaching an airfield particularly in bad weather remembering that the 500 foot rule does not apply during the takeoff and landing phase ( Also remembering that altimeter error within limits can bring an aircraft even lower) you may have a good case.

There has been one case in Europe of an aircraft hiting a turbine in bad weather (lucky to survive) and more than one in the USA. Aviation safety can be a strong card if played correctly.

Last edited by ericferret; 19th Jun 2014 at 13:16.
ericferret is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 13:50
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: UK sometimes
Posts: 134
The fact that a proposed wind turbine sits in a low flying area isn’t necessarily a threat to flight safety on it’s own. The aircraft captain may be authorised down to 250ft MSD (or lower). If said turbine is marked clearly on charts/maps and there are no other factors (like the aforementioned low flying choke point or airfield safeguarding criteria) then the aircraft captain is to avoid that obstacle by 250ft. If there is an identified danger to MOD aircraft by this proposal then the MOD will certainly object.
I wish you well in your campaign but I wouldn’t necessarily rely on the flight safety argument alone.
fabs is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 14:12
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: London
Age: 65
Posts: 415
Wind turbines can and do interfere with primary surveillance radars. That is why there is a Transponder Mandatory Zone around Thanet and the London Array - the TMZ allows ATC to use its SSR instead of primary radar. There is also a consultation running (check the CAA website) on a TMZ over a chunk of the Irish Sea near Liverpool to mitigate the effects of the turbines (290m blade height!) on Warton's PSR.

This is an issue that affects civ and mil airspace users.
Fortissimo is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 15:05
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: home for good
Posts: 494
Scottish judiciary have just upheld a ruling that allowed the MoD to veto some wind turbines on hills near the radar heads on the Hebrides. If you google Hebrides and MoD/windfarm you should find the recent story.
Sandy Parts is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 15:39
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SW England
Age: 75
Posts: 3,872
Chap up the road from me had a medium sized one installed about 4 years back. I approached the company who installed it with a view to having the same. Plans were quite advanced, agreements drawn up etc, when the company backed out. Apparently Culdrose (in whose MATZ our properties both lie) were intending to object to all turbines above a certain size in the area, on the radar interference grounds already referred to, so my plan for a nice little £5k pa addition to my pension came to nought. When we enquired about how my neighbour's one got through, Culdrose had apparently objected too late, and weren't going to get caught on the hop again.

Funny thing is there is a much bigger wind farm with half a dozen large turbines just a few miles South of Culdrose - that seems to got through ok without interfering with the radar, but what do I know? Mrs TTN was pleased, though, she never really wanted it anyway.
Tankertrashnav is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 15:58
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: UK.
Posts: 4,391
I'd doubt that the rotation speed of a wind turbine would cause a radar problem.
When using the Argosy (RR Dart engines) for flight calibration, I recollect we had a prop RPM range to avoid due harmonic re-radiation of part of the ILS signal interfering with the accuracy of our technicians' instruments.
The restriction did not apply when flying a normal ILS.
Basil is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 16:21
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Deepest darkest London
Posts: 258
Afternoon all

I assume you are all aware the a Swedish Company (Vattenfaal??) is proposing a massive wind farm at Nocton Fen running out towards Bardney.

I wonder if they realise that it falls with in the Coningsby (possibly) and Waddington (more likely) MATZs.

Not to mention the low flying route which runs down the Lincolnshire wolds past Bardney, and out over the edge of Metheringham.

And add to that on days when the visibility is bad Coningsby's finest often fly around/over the village of Branston next to Waddington

I never got a reply when pointing this out

V1
Valiantone is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 16:44
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 944
Jamesman -

1. Can you please post the name of the Planning Authority (the Council) or a ref number so interested parties can look it up in detail.

2. I refer you to the Bullington Cross windfarm application that Winchester, Test Valley and Basingstoke Councils jointly refused last week. Allegedly MoD objected. EDF are expected to appeal.

BBC News - Bullington Cross wind turbine plan rejected at joint meeting

Hampshire wind farm refused over MoD concerns | Planning Resource

Planning Committee on 16 June 2014 10:00 AM ? Winchester City Council

This last link leads to detailed "Committee Reports."

I tried to find the definitive council website pages for more specific details of the application, but they all use user unfriendly software processes which makes it difficult for nosy gits – and I don't think they've updated anyway.

3. I was astounded to see that the Reading Green Park (single) wind turbine is claimed to have an historic operating efficiency record of just 17% of its full capacity and generates less electricity value than the subsidies paid to it in addition. A triumph of optimism over reality perhaps ?

4. I am told the Rule of Thumb says 5 - 15 - 25 metres per second windspeeds give you "start generating" – "reach rated power" and "stop generating" windspeeds for current wind turbines.



LFH
Lordflasheart is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 17:04
  #18 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 79
Posts: 16,756
Valiantone, living near Coningsby and miles from Nocton Fen and Bardney, I would be staggered if the farm got anywhere near the Coningsby MATZ. The north-south corridor I give would be close but probably no issue.

Rather than protesting against a wind farm near my unit, our help was sought by the Bicker Fen people who assumed that as a source of low flying complaints in their area we would protest against the wind farm. Of course, as pointed out, they are easy enough to avoid.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 17:07
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Wherever it is this month
Posts: 1,666
Originally Posted by Basil

I'd doubt that the rotation speed of a wind turbine would cause a radar
problem.
Wrong. Fortissimo is absolutely correct. Stationary obstructions (masts, towers, etc) can be masked from a primary radar picture through digital processing. But wind speed and direction both affect the radar return from wind turbine blades, and this means that they cannot be mapped out of a radar picture. Allied to that, modern primary radars typically include some doppler signal processing logic with which the blades play merry havoc. Take it from me, they are a significant issue near airfields; I've been denied a deconfliction service on several occasions because the number of returns from windfarms meant that the controller couldn't provide the level of service required (there being no way to guarantee that the mass of ever-shifting returns don't include a non-squawking light aircraft).
Easy Street is offline  
Old 19th Jun 2014, 18:38
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: London, New York, Paris, Moscow.
Posts: 3,631
Originally Posted by Exascot View Post
I am a consultant in environmental issues and very opposed to wind turbines. I was instrumental in halting a massive proposed project here on our island. I do not think the danger to low flying a/c will work as a lever. It is no different to radio masts etc. It would just get marked up on charts and put into nav systems.

Good luck.
Russia in secret plot against fracking, Nato chief says - Telegraph

"Speaking at the Chatham House foreign affairs think-tank in London, Anders Fogh Rasmussen said Russia was mounting a sophisticated disinformation campaign aimed at undermining attempts to exploit alternative energy sources.....

commiebastids
glad rag is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.