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Air Cadets grounded?

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Air Cadets grounded?

Old 13th Jun 2017, 17:12
  #3581 (permalink)  
 
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Tail Accident

ARC As tail accidents are very common with glass ships no doubt competent repairers are able to, and indeed required to conduct a repair (to the manufacturers specifications) I wonder who signed this off !!!
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Old 13th Jun 2017, 18:49
  #3582 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
ARC As tail accidents are very common with glass ships no doubt competent repairers are able to, and indeed required to conduct a repair (to the manufacturers specifications) I wonder who signed this off !!!
I saw a K21 at Zulu Glasstek having the tail boom repaired. It was in a jig to endure the fin was correctly positioned. I'm sure the tail boom diameter was the same after the repair as it was before the accident.

Sounds like a very botched repair, I wouldn't want to fly it.
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Old 14th Jun 2017, 08:59
  #3583 (permalink)  
 
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Predannack Hangar Collapse 1990

Another number of Vikings were destroyed at Predannick (sp) when snow collected on the temporary hangar and caused it to collapse.
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Old 14th Jun 2017, 10:02
  #3584 (permalink)  
 
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If they were "destroyed" how come all 3 were sold to gliding organisations and registered as airworthy aircraft?
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Old 14th Jun 2017, 11:46
  #3585 (permalink)  
 
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An interesting couple of posts on Viking losses at Predannack.

When a military aircraft is damaged, that damage is assessed and categorised. This event sounds like a 'Cat 3' (could be repaired at the the unit by specialist teams) or 'Cat 4' (could be repaired by the manufacturer). (Cat 5 is 'beyond any repair'). Normally, aircraft assessed as Cat 3 or 4 are only disposed of if they are judged to be 'BER' - Beyond Economic Repair'.

I'd like to see what the damage assessment was, who decided that they were 'BER', and who approved the sale of the aircraft to the RAF's own gliding association.

I'll also take a bet that the MoD had failed to place any contracts for the manufacturer to assess and repair damaged aircraft. There have also been rumours that the Aircraft Repair Manuals were inadequate.

Any info on this subject from any PPruners out there?

Best regards as ever to anyone fixing the aircraft

Engines
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Old 14th Jun 2017, 13:23
  #3586 (permalink)  
 
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Early on I believe that many of the Cat 5 airframes were stripped for spares. I saw at least 3 airframes which had been stripped back to absolutely nothing (shells). These were then sold off by MoD tender.

I was told that the logic was that no spares forecasts had been completed for the airframe and no spares ordered (not an untypical situation with an end of year splurge 'use it or lose it' accounting system which was where the original funding tranche came from), which meant that any items that needed to be replaced (other than wheels, tyres and brakes) had to be special orders from Grob. During the first third of the airframe life Grob announced that they were not going to make gliders any more and focused on Powered aircraft. Items from Cat 5 aircraft such as control columns and airbrake assemblies, seats, straps etc were certainly reused in other aircraft.

This meant that the spares source effectively ceased, although Grob would make spares on a 'one off' basis at an exorbitant price per item.

Later some Cat 5 airframes were BER'd and only partially stripped - others sold in an 'as is' condition (such as the trailer accident). These were probably repairable but not cost effective to do so. As we know - anything is repairable if you throw enough and/or skill at it. Since there was a glut of Vikings at this stage (due to basing strategies meaning that many Viking sites were closing) I assume it was decided to reduce the overall numbers anyway by releasing the damaged airframes.

In parallel MoD was hunting down civilian Grob 109's that had been built at the same time as their own and purchasing them at above market rate and then having Modifications embodied to bring them to the same level as their existing fleet. These were then issued to VGS's to replace Vikings at sites where the Viking was no longer 'acceptable' to the unit basing strategy.Hence the increase in Vigilant Numbers overall and reduction in Viking.

WRT to sales of Vikings - These sales were all by the usual MoD Tender system as far as I am aware. Maybe the RAFGSA just got lucky (or unlucky !!).

Arc
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 07:41
  #3587 (permalink)  
 
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So, she gets a CBE for this...imagine what she'd have got if they'd completely destroyed it...!

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/qbhl2017.cfm

OB
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 08:11
  #3588 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Opsbeatch View Post
So, she gets a CBE for this...imagine what she'd have got if they'd completely destroyed it...!

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/qbhl2017.cfm

OB
I think I accurately predicted an outbreak of tea and medals ! All that's missing now is one for the Boss at 3 FTS ! And of course a press release to say what a remarkable achievement it is to have just about crawled back into limited operations, with much fewer aircraft, virtually no Vigilants, given away some to Grob, less staff, less VGS establishments, and productivity at an all time low.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 08:16
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Originally Posted by Opsbeatch View Post
So, she gets a CBE for this...imagine what she'd have got if they'd completely destroyed it...!

https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/qbhl2017.cfm

OB
I think you will find that the whole debacle was/is way outside Commandant Air Cadet's sphere of control.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 08:30
  #3590 (permalink)  
 
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Who deserves an award?

No doubt she is doing a great job, whilst getting paid for it, and is publicising herself doing it on FaceTwit!

BUT, it is the cadets who should be given an award as they have been deprived of the jewel in the Air Cadet crown for 3 years.

Not forgetting the many volunteer Air Cadet gliding instructors and staff cadets who have been trampled over whilst this debacle unfolded.

Well done all of you, it is you who deserves the recognition.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 09:10
  #3591 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
I think you will find that the whole debacle was/is way outside Commandant Air Cadet's sphere of control.
I have no doubt that this is correct, but as the face of the ATC she has to take the flack for letting this happen on her watch. As I sent to her, I would be more impressed if she returned the CBE and said 'not until I have fixed this'.

OB
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 09:29
  #3592 (permalink)  
 
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Agreed .........BUT.....

Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger View Post
I think you will find that the whole debacle was/is way outside Commandant Air Cadet's sphere of control.


Yes, absolutely correct BUT she has been busy broadcasting the propaganda on Facebook about how wonderful things are, rather than a more considered line saying perhaps that she was somewhat disappointed by the 3 year break in Cadets learning to fly and glide at 24 VGS' and apologising on behalf of the RAF. Scribbly Admin branch people who are not pilots and instructors don't have the same zeal or understanding of the need for flying for Cadets, failing to realise that the initial word of her organisation is "AIR" !!! not Ground
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 09:46
  #3593 (permalink)  
 
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Medals Galore

Just the usual (under the carpet with the truth) and highlight the (what a great job the 'higher up's have done). No one takes any of this seriously because its just part of the medal rationing system we have festooned ourselves with.
The simple fact is the RAF have allowed themselves to become part of the whole 'outsourcing system' with companies that themselves have ex senior VSO's in house.
The Cadets have been lied to, and a generation of then denied a facility that has already been paid for.
The 'political nature' of the services must frustrate those that have spent a career trying to get the real job done. The ACO will not be seen as an important facet compared with governments trying to cope with saving money and keeping the 'in house jobs' going for the suits in the ministry. With so little RAF hardware and base's nowadays the ATC has become a convenient 'billet' to keep employment going, rather than a centre of excellence to provide a flying input to the Cadets. The ex volunteers will be appalled at the way the organisation has been treated by those PAID to back it up. ALL AN UTTER DISGRACE.
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Old 19th Jun 2017, 17:13
  #3594 (permalink)  
 
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Fair Critisism?

While I fully understand the anger and frustration that appears throughout this thread I have great difficulty in seeing what, if anything, the current Commandant could have done to rectify the gliding situation.
As I understand it, the contract to provide engineering support for the glider fleet was let before her time in office. The responsibility for air cadet gliding was subsequently transferred out of HQAC to 3 FTS to ensure there was sufficient flying SQEP involved in the process, aithough the engineering contract monitoring remained within HQAC. The issues concerning engineering standards and compliance were only discovered when 2FTS stood up. Whatever individuals feel about the current incumbant his suspension of flying was greatly to his credit. Since then issues of finance, contract and industry capacity will have severely constrained the options.
Given that the current Comdt has been handed the distinctly unpleasant end of the stick I believe she has done as well as anyone could (and better than most) to not only hold the organisation together but to ensure that this generation of cadets get the best experience that they can given the circumstances. We may not be twitter and facebook fans but the cadets are and they enjoy her posts Those that meet her comment on her enthusiasm, energy and commitment which for teenagers is vital and so sadly lacking in many areas of society.
Have the VGS volunteers been treated in the worst possible way by the leadership at 2FTS? It would appear that the answer (if this thread reflects the truth) can only be yes. Have cadets missed out on the gliding experience that was the common currency of previous generations, yes that have. But, if future cadets are going to have an RAF supported aviation organisation to join, can I think of anyone who could have worked harder to ensure it will be there for them, no I can't.
For the record I am former serving and still work with cadets. I could be described as an admin shiney but I hope one of many that understand the absolute and central requirement for the air in air cadets.
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Old 20th Jun 2017, 08:10
  #3595 (permalink)  

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Scribbly Admin branch people who are not pilots and instructors don't have the same zeal or understanding of the need for flying for Cadets
And no longer any aviators among the Region Commanders I think ........
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Old 24th Jun 2017, 13:09
  #3596 (permalink)  
 
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So where are we up to in the process of recover these days?
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Old 24th Jun 2017, 18:07
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Process of recovery

Shaft 109 On a scale of 1 to 10 10 being 100% about -1 I am not aware of any Squadrons flying Vikings yet, not to mention the staff availability for the massive retraining required for those not 'aged' out. I suspect there will be some 'recruitment' from civvy clubs required as there will be no staff cadet element left to draw from. In fact just to drive a winch or one of the support tow vehicles will prob now require some sort of course,so nothing will happen overnight.
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Old 24th Jun 2017, 18:58
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Apart from the 3 squadrons that are flying Vikings and the 4th about to stand up within the month, with most of them having staff cadets to boot?
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 12:50
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Originally Posted by POBJOY View Post
In fact just to drive a winch....will prob now require some sort of course
I'd have thought "some sort of course" to operate one of the potentially most dangerous items of machinery on the airfield would be no bad thing.
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Old 25th Jun 2017, 14:58
  #3600 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by campbeex View Post
I'd have thought "some sort of course" to operate one of the potentially most dangerous items of machinery on the airfield would be no bad thing.
Back in 79 I watched a C Cat as he launched two gliders with the two cables on the Bedford winch, he then talked me through the next pair, after that I was on my own. I don't think 'my course' lasted much longer than half an hour. These days it will be a week at Syerston.
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