Global Aviation Magazine : 60 Years of the Hercules
I started my time on Albert in 1991. I always remember the aircraft for the external tanks, which gave the aircraft a fuel load of 62,900 lbs of fuel. Anyone have any idea where the requirement for the externals came from as many Air forces in the late 60s were happy with a "less well endowed" Albert. Particularly after the introduction of IFR after Op Corporate, when extended route legs could be accommodated by tanking, and less profile drag. Does anyone have any ideas as to why we went for the external tank fit, and secondly, did anyone ever fly a K sans externals ?
Smudge
Smudge
Vulcan/Hercules AAR
Still catching up! Page 129
I may have got it wrong but I had the impression from the posts re the Vulcan tanker that the Vulcan was not on the scene as early as some indicated.
AAR training, 6 sorties in 4 days 18-21June 82 were always Victors flown by either OC Marham or the USAF exchange officer who was not allowed to go south to ASI. Everyone else on the Victors was at ASI. I was involved in the Airbridge until early 84 and never saw a Vulcan. Can't remember when the Herc tanker took over. I should have recorded what the tanker was and not just the number of contacts. Must have been late 82/early83. AA62 help please!
Slight thread drift. Re different aircraft having different handling characteristics.
Hastings CMk1a TG568, ex Colerne had been used for a glider snatch trial back in the dark ages. Unfortunately on one attempt the glider was still picketed! 568 must have been stretched and always needed more ballast than any of the other Mk1 Hastings to fly, especially to flare, like any of the others! And they were all heavy on the elevators at low speed.
HTC
I may have got it wrong but I had the impression from the posts re the Vulcan tanker that the Vulcan was not on the scene as early as some indicated.
AAR training, 6 sorties in 4 days 18-21June 82 were always Victors flown by either OC Marham or the USAF exchange officer who was not allowed to go south to ASI. Everyone else on the Victors was at ASI. I was involved in the Airbridge until early 84 and never saw a Vulcan. Can't remember when the Herc tanker took over. I should have recorded what the tanker was and not just the number of contacts. Must have been late 82/early83. AA62 help please!
Slight thread drift. Re different aircraft having different handling characteristics.
Hastings CMk1a TG568, ex Colerne had been used for a glider snatch trial back in the dark ages. Unfortunately on one attempt the glider was still picketed! 568 must have been stretched and always needed more ballast than any of the other Mk1 Hastings to fly, especially to flare, like any of the others! And they were all heavy on the elevators at low speed.
HTC
Smudge,
The K came with the external fuel tanks. We took them off some aircraft (which were going to be used mainly for local training) around 1981 because there was a spending moratorium and the idea was to save fuel by saving the extra drag and weight of the tanks. Then came the Falklands and they were all put back on.
The K came with the external fuel tanks. We took them off some aircraft (which were going to be used mainly for local training) around 1981 because there was a spending moratorium and the idea was to save fuel by saving the extra drag and weight of the tanks. Then came the Falklands and they were all put back on.
One of the Staion Commanders at Lyneham had the bright idea to remove the externals from some a/c. When Group heard of this thet went ballistic and the tanks were swiftly replaced. TT and drag they were indeed 914C (round) shackles something we learned the hard way when we first got the Herc. The checklist only specified '914 ' so ne day a one ton auto drop got airborne with the load rigged with 914G shackles (more oval shaped). Come green on and as the load trundled aft these shackles twisted on the anchor cable and jammed. We learned about the difference from that !
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Vulcan AAR
1066,
I was an instructor at STS during the first few months of AAR Training. According to my logbook we used Vulcan Tankers, mainly, in July '82.
I seem to remember that the Victors became overstretched and the Vulcan was pressed into service. It was an impressive shape to fly behind.
As far as I know, it was only used in training. I don't think any Hercs used the Vulcan 'down South'.
I was an instructor at STS during the first few months of AAR Training. According to my logbook we used Vulcan Tankers, mainly, in July '82.
I seem to remember that the Victors became overstretched and the Vulcan was pressed into service. It was an impressive shape to fly behind.
As far as I know, it was only used in training. I don't think any Hercs used the Vulcan 'down South'.
External tanks
On the subject of external tanks I have to relate a story from my "down route" experiences, which might raise a chuckle or two. I might say it's an honour to follow a distinguished former Flt Eng on the posting roster.
An Engineer Told me .......
In the words of the famous song, without his death being involved, I remember a route that with a very well behaved Albert, allowed me plenty of time to join the operators at the party room for a beer or three. The Flt Eng on the trip was an affable chap, and enjoyed the opportunity to "educate" me (a mere ground crew representative) in the skills and knowledge he had of aerodynamics, airframe design and performance issues. So, on one such evening our conversation (nay, lecture) got round to external tanks on Albert. I have always viewed the external tank as a tube, given some aerodynamic profile it would always at best, only generate profile and skin friction drag, and be a net detraction from the performance of the aircraft. But no, says my Eng, in full thrust after several wind down beers, the C130K external tanks are designed, at cruise speed, to generate the equivilant lift of the fuel they contain
which means that the tanks empty generate oodles of extra lift and allow the aircraft to happily lift extra cargo. Well, how could I, a mere GE (of basic Airframe trade) having done only enough to know half rho V squared S, argue with such a proposition. I decided to opt for a second "wind down beer" and wish the Eng a swift recovery from his delusional state. Now, anyone have experience of lifting extra weight due to having the externals fitted and empty ?
Smudge
An Engineer Told me .......
In the words of the famous song, without his death being involved, I remember a route that with a very well behaved Albert, allowed me plenty of time to join the operators at the party room for a beer or three. The Flt Eng on the trip was an affable chap, and enjoyed the opportunity to "educate" me (a mere ground crew representative) in the skills and knowledge he had of aerodynamics, airframe design and performance issues. So, on one such evening our conversation (nay, lecture) got round to external tanks on Albert. I have always viewed the external tank as a tube, given some aerodynamic profile it would always at best, only generate profile and skin friction drag, and be a net detraction from the performance of the aircraft. But no, says my Eng, in full thrust after several wind down beers, the C130K external tanks are designed, at cruise speed, to generate the equivilant lift of the fuel they contain
which means that the tanks empty generate oodles of extra lift and allow the aircraft to happily lift extra cargo. Well, how could I, a mere GE (of basic Airframe trade) having done only enough to know half rho V squared S, argue with such a proposition. I decided to opt for a second "wind down beer" and wish the Eng a swift recovery from his delusional state. Now, anyone have experience of lifting extra weight due to having the externals fitted and empty ?Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 30th May 2015 at 18:16. Reason: Failure to spell correctly
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually....................
Thinking about lift and the external tanks.
In flight, and with a zero Angle of Attack, the external tanks should have no effect on lift but, if you have any AoA at all, there would be some lift generated. Whether it would be significant is beyond my mental arithmetic.
I'm sure there are others, more qualified, who can explain further.
Mr Bernoulli isn't on Twitter........
In flight, and with a zero Angle of Attack, the external tanks should have no effect on lift but, if you have any AoA at all, there would be some lift generated. Whether it would be significant is beyond my mental arithmetic.
I'm sure there are others, more qualified, who can explain further.
Mr Bernoulli isn't on Twitter........
Kilwhang,
Apologies for the spelling error, duly amended. I won't cash the cheque !! AOA, I rather suspect, and always understood, that Albert in the cruise flew with a 3 degree AOA. That being the case, the external tank would offer a larger profile to the RAF (Relative Air Flow) and therefore negate any lift benefits. I know, I'm just an old rigger. Perhaps the Eng from my route lecture might like to put me right.
Smudge
Apologies for the spelling error, duly amended. I won't cash the cheque !! AOA, I rather suspect, and always understood, that Albert in the cruise flew with a 3 degree AOA. That being the case, the external tank would offer a larger profile to the RAF (Relative Air Flow) and therefore negate any lift benefits. I know, I'm just an old rigger. Perhaps the Eng from my route lecture might like to put me right.
Smudge
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: M4 Corridor
Posts: 561
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
External story
When the Red Arrows lived at Kemble, the trips they went on with Albert support always ended there to offload all their Eng support equipment before the 10 minute hop back to Lyneham for the wind down pop in the Lyneham Lanes Bowling Alley.
We had been on a much remembered trip to St Yan in France, Pisa Italy, Malta, Naples, and Germany before returning to RAF Sleepy Hollow in Glos.
Imagine our surprise to find a Customs Rummage Crew waiting on the pan. The ensuing mayhem in the freight bay was pandemonium.
Once the sparrows groundcrew had disembarked we did a FOD plod to be helpful and found contraband in the strangest places.
The unsmiling Customs blokes then swept the aircraft for more with the final straw directed at me. "You! where is the switch to jettison the drop tanks?"
Me, "If you have a tool kit you can unbolt them but there is no "Jettison switch. They are External Tanks not Drop Tanks"
Him, "Don't you obstruct an officer of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise"
Me, "Speak to the Ground Eng and he will draw off a sample from the tanks for your delectation"
Him, "I will impound this aircraft and the crew if you don't comply with my order"
Me. Before you do that please talk to customs at Lyneham or you might appear more of a ladies front bottom than you do already"
Short chat with Lyneham customs
"You are free to go"
Us "Thank you Sir"
We still had to go through customs again at Lyneham half an hour later.
They are all bas****s really.
We had been on a much remembered trip to St Yan in France, Pisa Italy, Malta, Naples, and Germany before returning to RAF Sleepy Hollow in Glos.
Imagine our surprise to find a Customs Rummage Crew waiting on the pan. The ensuing mayhem in the freight bay was pandemonium.
Once the sparrows groundcrew had disembarked we did a FOD plod to be helpful and found contraband in the strangest places.
The unsmiling Customs blokes then swept the aircraft for more with the final straw directed at me. "You! where is the switch to jettison the drop tanks?"
Me, "If you have a tool kit you can unbolt them but there is no "Jettison switch. They are External Tanks not Drop Tanks"
Him, "Don't you obstruct an officer of Her Majesty's Customs and Excise"
Me, "Speak to the Ground Eng and he will draw off a sample from the tanks for your delectation"
Him, "I will impound this aircraft and the crew if you don't comply with my order"
Me. Before you do that please talk to customs at Lyneham or you might appear more of a ladies front bottom than you do already"
Short chat with Lyneham customs
"You are free to go"
Us "Thank you Sir"
We still had to go through customs again at Lyneham half an hour later.
They are all bas****s really.
Classic Doug 
. I always thought that HM Customs were "very nice people" 
nice photograph, but is it a K ? And is that the Reds (only 7) ?
Smudge
. I always thought that HM Customs were "very nice people" nice photograph, but is it a K ? And is that the Reds (only 7) ?Smudge
Last edited by smujsmith; 30th May 2015 at 21:42.
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Erewhon
Posts: 474
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We got rummaged at Honington or somesuch, returning from an APC. I was even asked what was in the toothpaste tube in my washbag.
He missed the irony so I did the hilariously witty verbal riposte thing and said 'toothpaste actually' (as you do). He took a sample (as opposed to being one).
You couldn't even see the surgery scars and their Sense of Humour Removals were a complete success.
Yep, lots of fun - The Revenue Men
He missed the irony so I did the hilariously witty verbal riposte thing and said 'toothpaste actually' (as you do). He took a sample (as opposed to being one).
You couldn't even see the surgery scars and their Sense of Humour Removals were a complete success.
Yep, lots of fun - The Revenue Men
Doug, that is a far better shot. I don't remember the black part of the leading edge on 212, outboard of No 4, nor what looks like an enlarged fuel dump tube. But your posts are as always superb, thanks for sorting my addled brain out. Bottoms up !!!!!
Smudge
Smudge
Ksimboy,
Must have been after my days as a GE, the patches, not your talking Bolleaux
Smudge
I can't see the yellow spot on the No1 prop in the original picture, I assume hidden by the prop cone. Though the second shot shows no yellow spot on No2 either. Blimey, the GEs must have been totally confused. I always trust Doug though. How nice that some banter surfaces.
Must have been after my days as a GE, the patches, not your talking Bolleaux
Smudge
I can't see the yellow spot on the No1 prop in the original picture, I assume hidden by the prop cone. Though the second shot shows no yellow spot on No2 either. Blimey, the GEs must have been totally confused. I always trust Doug though. How nice that some banter surfaces.