Flt. Lt. Sean Cunningham inquest
BBC News:-
So what is he saying, that Martin-Baker acted in an illogical way, or that the account of who received the warnings is illogical?
The inquest heard Martin-Baker warned some air forces but did not warn the MoD, and Mr Fisher said there was "no logic" to this.
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If they were sending a signal out to all users, would it not be the simple omission of the RAF off the mailing list that caused this? I would assume it would go out to everyone at once, and might not have been picked up at the time.
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Last edited by NutLoose; 29th Jan 2014 at 15:52.
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It's not the first time a manufacturer has sent out maintenance critical information but has neglected to send it to the RAF.
Cunning Artificer
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4 days? November? Was this aircraft towed in and out of the hangar with a techie sat in the seat on brakes !
The seat pins should have been moved to 'Safe for Maintenance' position and signed/countersigned by the armourers . . . 4 days later when towed out, they should have been placed 'Safe for Parking . . .
I/he/she/it didn't.
During my time in the Royal Air Force I always, always, always checked the seat pins carefully before getting into the seat. One day I was lying on my back under a Vulcan instrument panel working on a pitot-static fault. My legs were resting on the seat and my tool roll was on the seat between my knees. I was reaching for a spanner when I noticed that the seat pan handle safety pin wasn't there. It wasn't on the floor near me, so I hadn't dislodged it when I worked my way in there. A while later someone came along and I asked them to put the pin in and yes, there it was, stuck in the stowage on the bulkhead behind the seat.
Complacency is something that creeps up on you and complacency is the root cause of so many accidents.
I learned about Maintenance from that . . .
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All an Armourer would have done to make a seat safe for Maintenance would be to fit the main gun sear. True, it is good practice to have checked the other pins as a matter of course. The aircrew are the only people that move the firing handle pin from flight stowage to safe for parking and vice versa during the normal day (unless they are instructing an armourer to do so). It is their responsibility to check they are fitted correctly too. I know the Mk 9 seat had a similar issue with the firing handle and was always mentioned on the AAES 6 monther. However this design issue and errors/lapses made by everyone involved would not have ended in tragic circumstances if another known design fault had been tackled or mentioned by MB years ago. That is the biggest failure IMHO.
The MoD report will put the meat on the inquest bones.
The MoD report will put the meat on the inquest bones.
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 29th Jan 2014 at 13:49.
The 4 days included a weekend so not so many movements as perhaps inferred.
There was no generic requirement to make the seats safe for maintenance just to put the aircraft away in the hangar. (Sometimes local rules may have required it)
It is not just one pin - either it is 'safe for maintenance' or not. That involves moving 3 pins per seat.
There was no generic requirement to make the seats safe for maintenance just to put the aircraft away in the hangar. (Sometimes local rules may have required it)
It is not just one pin - either it is 'safe for maintenance' or not. That involves moving 3 pins per seat.
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So the aircrew move all the pins on a Hawk? The firing handle pin is only ever moved by the person sitting in the seat or by somebody qualified to remove it in the case of a CAT B passenger. I stand corrected on the Mk 10 (a seat I had only one brief on and that was from the example on a Tornado GR), it doesn't have a main gun sear (being completely gas operated), so apologies for that ignorance. Seat Handle, MDC and Man Sep?
Last edited by Alber Ratman; 29th Jan 2014 at 14:05.
There are 6 pins in total per cockpit. 3 servicing pins (main gun, man sep and rocket pack) are moved to switch between 'safe for maintenance' and 'safe for parking' states. The MDC firing unit pins (one in each cockpit) are moved by the pilot before getting in. The seat handle pin and the MDC handle pin are moved by the seat occupant once strapped in with the canopy closed and prior to starting the engine.
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Thanks for clarifying that BN. It was standard practice on the FJ Sqns, I worked on that the aircraft would always be made safe for maintenance , cease fly. Somebody, of any trade was likely to have to do some work involving cockpit access.
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I learned about Maintenance from that . .
A Sgt armourer nearly killed himself, carrying out pull-off checks on the seat -pan handle. He took another armourer's word that the cartridges had been removed. It was the nav's seat on a PR9 and luckily he was thrown back, away from the seat. The laid down safety procedures had been severely ignored!
BBC News:-
It seems illogical indeed that such a simple fault was not known by the UK Military Airworthiness Authority, aka the MOD/MAA. It seems illogical that the seat manufacturer would not have informed its major customer while informing its minor ones. It seems illogical that even were it not so informed, that the UK Military Airworthiness Authority, aka the MOD/MAA, would not have become aware over a period of 23 years.
As Nutloose suggests, the informing would have been by signal or other written means. The address lists of either would have confirmed or disproved the verbal evidence given in court. Were they presented? Do they exist?
Martin-Baker knew the parachute mechanism could jam if the nut and bolt were too tight as early as January 1990, the inquest was told.
It seems illogical indeed that such a simple fault was not known by the UK Military Airworthiness Authority, aka the MOD/MAA. It seems illogical that the seat manufacturer would not have informed its major customer while informing its minor ones. It seems illogical that even were it not so informed, that the UK Military Airworthiness Authority, aka the MOD/MAA, would not have become aware over a period of 23 years.
As Nutloose suggests, the informing would have been by signal or other written means. The address lists of either would have confirmed or disproved the verbal evidence given in court. Were they presented? Do they exist?
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Seat Malfunction?
Are we going to find out whether the pilot was strapped in when the seat fired, and killed by a badly maintained parachute link. In which case why did the seat fire.
If he trod on an improperly pinned seat handle then the failure of the chute to deploy did not affect his fate. Presumably the proper questions will be asked. The press doesn't seem to have much of a handle on it.
If he trod on an improperly pinned seat handle then the failure of the chute to deploy did not affect his fate. Presumably the proper questions will be asked. The press doesn't seem to have much of a handle on it.
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The pilot was strapped in. He can do that himself if away from base by himself, but it was at Scampton so his mechanic would have helped him with the shoulder straps and anything else he requested. Seat firing handle pin must be in. It is everybody's responsibility to check the relevant seat pins are in place before they get into the seat, aircrew more so as they have to remove the pins and stow them from safe for parking to live (Safe for maintenance has recently been mentioned). As others have said, he would shut the canopy and remove the last pins to make his canopy MDC and Seat firing handle live. The SI report should have the statements of the liney as the main witness to the incident. I have handled Hawks before, on a VASS, so remember some of the pre flight checks requiring ground help, but cant remember if the pilot would show pins before stowing them (13 years has past). I do remember we were always instructed to move well away from the lid as it was being closed, in case MDC did fire off (like the Tornado). The lid was shut on the Hawk. The SI report will hopefully fill the missing holes in as much detail as it can. Seems some here have already seen the contents.
when this era of aircraft were designed and the manuals written the system was completely different. They were maintained by fully skilled people. The manuals didnt specify every task the way they do now. I was in KSA for the start of Hawk ops using the old USAF trade system. The manuals didnt comply so we were forever raising amendments to Bae , Tornado was similar. Cant believe that the parachute shackle issue hadnt been highlighted long ago as it was the same on a lot of earlier seats. Suspect its been lost in time as i'm sure i remember armourers checking for freedom of movement on those on refit after coming back from the bay. How many of us ever checked a seat handle was in place ? You automatically look for the pin being stowed ! Not any more !
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Are we going to find out whether the pilot was strapped in when the seat fired
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