Ouch.... seems a Harsh sentence
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Didn't the Ghurkhas have the same issue with one of their Rupert's and solved the problem by rolling a live pin pulled frag grenade under the toilet door while he was using it.
It could have been one of "those" tales about them though.
Only time our lot caught one of the management team sleeping it off said management person got three days worth of steaming post use compo rations deposited in his battle bowler. Not a word was said afterwards and he didn't do it again.
If sunray had found out his life would have been hell for weeks mind.
It could have been one of "those" tales about them though.
Only time our lot caught one of the management team sleeping it off said management person got three days worth of steaming post use compo rations deposited in his battle bowler. Not a word was said afterwards and he didn't do it again.
If sunray had found out his life would have been hell for weeks mind.
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: South of Old Warden
Age: 87
Posts: 1,375
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
The Duke of Wellington knew how to handle his troops
SAM SMALL
(Pick oop tha' musket)
by
Stanley Holloway
It occurred on the evening before Waterloo,
And troops were lined up on parade,
The Sergeant inspecting 'em he was a terror,
Of whom every man was afraid
All excepting one man who was in the front rank,
A man by the name of Sam Small,
And 'im and the Sergeant were both 'daggers drawn',
They thought 'nowt' of each other at all
As Sergeant walked past he was swinging his arms,
And he happened to brush against Sam,
And knocking his musket clean out of his hand,
It fell to the ground with a slam
'Pick it up' said Sergeant, abrupt like but cool,
But Sam with a shake of his head,
'Seeing as tha' knocked it out of me hand,
P'raps tha'll pick the thing up instead.
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket,'
The Sergeant exclaimed with a roar,
Sam said 'Tha' knocked it doon, reet! then tha'll pick it oop,
Or it'll stay where it is on't floor
The sound of high words very soon reached the ears,
Of an Officer, Lieutenant Bird,
Who says to the Sergeant, 'Now what's all this ere?'
And the Sergeant told what had occurred.
'Sam, Sam, pick up tha' musket'
Lieutenant exclaimed with some heat,
Sam said, 'He knocked it down reet! Then he'll pick it oop,
Or it stays where it is, at me feet
It caused quite a stir when the Captain arrived,
To find out the cause of the trouble,
And every man there, all except Sam,
Was full of excitement and bubble
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket',
Said Captain for strickness renowned,
Sam said 'He knocked it doon, Reet! so he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on't ground
The same thing occurred when the Major and Colonel,
Both tried to get Sam to see sense,
But when Old Duke 'O Wellington came into view,
Well the excitement was really quite tense
Up rode the Duke on a loverly white 'orse,
To find out the cause of the bother,
He looked at the musket and then at Old Sam,
And he talked to Old Sam like a brother
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket'
The Duke said as quiet as could be,
'Sam, Sam pick oop tha' musket,
Coom on lad, just to please me
'Alright Duke,' said Old Sam, 'just for thee I'll oblige,
And to show thee I meant no offence',
So Sam picked it up, 'Gradely, lad' said the Duke,
'Right-o boys... let battle commence.'
SAM SMALL(Pick oop tha' musket)
by
Stanley Holloway
It occurred on the evening before Waterloo,
And troops were lined up on parade,
The Sergeant inspecting 'em he was a terror,
Of whom every man was afraid
All excepting one man who was in the front rank,
A man by the name of Sam Small,
And 'im and the Sergeant were both 'daggers drawn',
They thought 'nowt' of each other at all
As Sergeant walked past he was swinging his arms,
And he happened to brush against Sam,
And knocking his musket clean out of his hand,
It fell to the ground with a slam
'Pick it up' said Sergeant, abrupt like but cool,
But Sam with a shake of his head,
'Seeing as tha' knocked it out of me hand,
P'raps tha'll pick the thing up instead.
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket,'
The Sergeant exclaimed with a roar,
Sam said 'Tha' knocked it doon, reet! then tha'll pick it oop,
Or it'll stay where it is on't floor
The sound of high words very soon reached the ears,
Of an Officer, Lieutenant Bird,
Who says to the Sergeant, 'Now what's all this ere?'
And the Sergeant told what had occurred.
'Sam, Sam, pick up tha' musket'
Lieutenant exclaimed with some heat,
Sam said, 'He knocked it down reet! Then he'll pick it oop,
Or it stays where it is, at me feet
It caused quite a stir when the Captain arrived,
To find out the cause of the trouble,
And every man there, all except Sam,
Was full of excitement and bubble
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket',
Said Captain for strickness renowned,
Sam said 'He knocked it doon, Reet! so he'll pick it up,
Or it stays where it is on't ground
The same thing occurred when the Major and Colonel,
Both tried to get Sam to see sense,
But when Old Duke 'O Wellington came into view,
Well the excitement was really quite tense
Up rode the Duke on a loverly white 'orse,
To find out the cause of the bother,
He looked at the musket and then at Old Sam,
And he talked to Old Sam like a brother
'Sam, Sam, pick oop tha' musket'
The Duke said as quiet as could be,
'Sam, Sam pick oop tha' musket,
Coom on lad, just to please me
'Alright Duke,' said Old Sam, 'just for thee I'll oblige,
And to show thee I meant no offence',
So Sam picked it up, 'Gradely, lad' said the Duke,
'Right-o boys... let battle commence.'
Mad Jock
Slight thread drift....
A grenade thrown into the office I believe (see post 244 here - can't find the original quote) although at post 274 of the same thread it suggest the grenade was part of a 'booby trap' in the Brit OC's desk drawer.
And information on the "Hawaii Incident" referred to in the above link can be found here
Slight thread drift....
A grenade thrown into the office I believe (see post 244 here - can't find the original quote) although at post 274 of the same thread it suggest the grenade was part of a 'booby trap' in the Brit OC's desk drawer.
And information on the "Hawaii Incident" referred to in the above link can be found here
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Melbourne
Age: 57
Posts: 628
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Assuming the info is correct a token 2-3 days should have been given to the individual "other ranks" to make the point about obeying orders.
The sleepers should have been made to run the Beacons course until they passed in the required timeframe.
And then transferred to the most boring backward place the army currently has.
The sleepers should have been made to run the Beacons course until they passed in the required timeframe.
And then transferred to the most boring backward place the army currently has.
Suspicion breeds confidence
No. Completely wrong. The Courts Martial handed down the appropriate award. The "alleged" army Captain would have been commanded by Major. Any such issue should have been brought to him. Suspect junior NCOs out of control. The correct action in my opinion. I don't know about the other forces, but in the Navy you would get a bad reception.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: The Whyte House
Age: 95
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Re. Sam Small
Respect can not be demanded, it is earned.
One hopes the officer and snco will receive the **it end of the posting stick and climb no further up the greasy pole.
One hopes the officer and snco will receive the **it end of the posting stick and climb no further up the greasy pole.
Suspicion breeds confidence
The story reflects very badly on the Army and I suspect lots of investigations are underway. The forces hate bad publicity and someone will have to pay the piper.
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: England
Posts: 924
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
An entire pyramid of bollaux
This happened way back in February 2013, and its only been done and brought to court now? Why the delay>? It stinks. (lack of lawyers as so many other cases involving military)?
Platoons/Divisions/Flights do not normally ever rebel against their NCOs in such a public way-especially in such a en masse, what happened to the much vaunted regimental system of here? (Apart from that it failed. Very badly and publically).
Most of the sympathy on the civvy forums goes with the young soldiers.
Hope its just a gash individual military unit, not a wider reflection on the whole military, but somehow I fear more stories like this in future. (A major decline is in place after all).
There are some very, very bad officers out there.
Hope those young lads-post porridge, **** the Army totally off and get the hell out, if I'm honest.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,047
Received 2,920 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
Everyone says there are correct procedures re a grievance etc, but be honest, if these guys went over their heads and complained what would have happened..... Probably not a lot, and then they would be stuck under the snit storm that would come down on them from those they had gone over.
What could you say, we believe they are unfit to command us? They slept while we did the exercise?
Far from saying it is all their doing and punishing them, the Army really needs to take a breadth, stand back, see what's gone wrong and fix it, the problem does not go away because you jail the perpetrators, because that simply means the problem has been swept under the carpet and still exists... Next time it may not be in a rural UK setting.
As said, you get some seriously bad officers both commissioned and not, I had the privilege to serve under one during my time and I wouldn't wish him on anyone, I wouldn't have let him mop the toilet floor let alone serve as an engineering officer... Don't get me wrong some if not most I worked with were superb, this guy simply was out of his depth and was clueless, unfortunately he was carried by those under him and looked good to those above him... I later heard he had a run in.
What could you say, we believe they are unfit to command us? They slept while we did the exercise?
Far from saying it is all their doing and punishing them, the Army really needs to take a breadth, stand back, see what's gone wrong and fix it, the problem does not go away because you jail the perpetrators, because that simply means the problem has been swept under the carpet and still exists... Next time it may not be in a rural UK setting.
As said, you get some seriously bad officers both commissioned and not, I had the privilege to serve under one during my time and I wouldn't wish him on anyone, I wouldn't have let him mop the toilet floor let alone serve as an engineering officer... Don't get me wrong some if not most I worked with were superb, this guy simply was out of his depth and was clueless, unfortunately he was carried by those under him and looked good to those above him... I later heard he had a run in.
It seems that the Corporal had better leadership skills than the Captain and Sergeant, though...
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just looked who they are made up from.
And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.
I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.
The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.
And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.
I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.
The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hanging off the end of a thread
Posts: 33,047
Received 2,920 Likes
on
1,249 Posts
Yep, strange world, they were not charged for sitting down, simply for not getting up again, they should have obeyed the order got up, then sat down again.. 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
There will be a far bigger story to this that is bound to make the Daily Comic in the coming days. The Commanders careers should also be 'over' if you ask me.
There will also be examples of peer pressure within the ranks to follow the lead, and one has to ask has this been considered in the outcome.
There will also be examples of peer pressure within the ranks to follow the lead, and one has to ask has this been considered in the outcome.
So they have thrown their careers away for a stupid act of petty disobedience. But one that should have got them all an A for courage and values on their next appraisal in some warped screwed up way.
The real problem here is not that they disobeyed an order, the problem is the unit and its so called leadership - as has been suggested already. That a captain and a sergeant had to order their troops to stand up shows just how far the rot had set in. Furthermore, that it went all the way to court martial does nothing to improve the credibility of the company and battalion. I would wager that the bigger problems started well before this incident and this was the final symptom rather than the problem. If the company and battalion leadership had been up to scratch, they would have seen things sliding and stepped in to arrest the decline and disciplined earlier at a lower level e.g. AGAI. Once it got to CM, there was only one outcome and it was always going to involve a heavy book being thrown at them for no other reason than to send a message but more importantly being seen to protect institutional reputation.
Unfortunately this is only going to become more and more common as bored squaddies are seen queuing outside Orderly Rooms on a Monday morning because the only fighting they can do now is over the weekend in the local boozer. I hope that the MOD has increased its AT budget! So what did happen to the captain and sergeant I wonder?
The real problem here is not that they disobeyed an order, the problem is the unit and its so called leadership - as has been suggested already. That a captain and a sergeant had to order their troops to stand up shows just how far the rot had set in. Furthermore, that it went all the way to court martial does nothing to improve the credibility of the company and battalion. I would wager that the bigger problems started well before this incident and this was the final symptom rather than the problem. If the company and battalion leadership had been up to scratch, they would have seen things sliding and stepped in to arrest the decline and disciplined earlier at a lower level e.g. AGAI. Once it got to CM, there was only one outcome and it was always going to involve a heavy book being thrown at them for no other reason than to send a message but more importantly being seen to protect institutional reputation.
Unfortunately this is only going to become more and more common as bored squaddies are seen queuing outside Orderly Rooms on a Monday morning because the only fighting they can do now is over the weekend in the local boozer. I hope that the MOD has increased its AT budget! So what did happen to the captain and sergeant I wonder?
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think it happened at the time the Green Horwards were told there division was going to be dispanded. I bet that cpl thought he was going to get the sgt`s slot and didn`t get it. Wonder how many of the Green Horward Officers and snco went for redundancy and got it.
They all knew they were getting dispersed so there careers were finished anyway.
They all knew they were getting dispersed so there careers were finished anyway.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can recall a Course whose collective ambition was to get a course rollicking off a Sqn Ldr boss who was a top bloke. Unfortunately for them, he knew the plan.
When they pushed their luck too far, he ordered each back to the Mess to reappear in No 1s. A victory for them incoming they thought.
He also asked the Sqn WO to do the same to be followed by 30mins remedial drill for the course on the flightline in No1s.
Followed by dismissal to return to the Mess, get changed and return to Sqn.
Not a disciplinary word was said. Nor did it ever need to be. The course toed the line thereafter.
Old School may be unfashionable but discipline behind the hangar has its place.
When they pushed their luck too far, he ordered each back to the Mess to reappear in No 1s. A victory for them incoming they thought.
He also asked the Sqn WO to do the same to be followed by 30mins remedial drill for the course on the flightline in No1s.
Followed by dismissal to return to the Mess, get changed and return to Sqn.
Not a disciplinary word was said. Nor did it ever need to be. The course toed the line thereafter.
Old School may be unfashionable but discipline behind the hangar has its place.
Join Date: May 2001
Posts: 10,815
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don`t know if you can relate gun fodder ways of thinking to those our own.
They are tribal as hell and even though they have very complicated weapons systems etc they are still thick as
and conditioned to do as the next rank up tells them.
They are tribal as hell and even though they have very complicated weapons systems etc they are still thick as
and conditioned to do as the next rank up tells them.
The error of these soldiers ways and there correct punishment has found its way into the public domain.
I see no reason that if further investigation reveals they were in fact being given orders by "muppets" that any action action taken is also made public.
I see no reason that if further investigation reveals they were in fact being given orders by "muppets" that any action action taken is also made public.