Ouch.... seems a Harsh sentence
Far too often we have Commanders....and not Leaders.....and sadly the Failures seem to keep getting promoted for some inexplicable reason.
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The reason they put them in the clinker before discharge is that it will go on their criminal record as having received a custodial sentence. MCTC is the punishment, discharge is the admin process - debate all you want the merits of that but the individuals were damn stupid to do what they did - not a surprise mind you as a majority in the Army are quite retarded!!
As for them being in the Recce Platoon - many that I have met from that cadre tend to be quite arrogant and swagger around as if they are SF. Good at soldiering they definitely are, but they also can be a problem to lead as well.
They got what they deserved; the Cpl showed poor leadership qualities when he should have tried to deal with it through other means; and there are plenty of them to try. If they had exhausted all avenues and this was the last resort, well that tends to be a different story.
And a final general sweeping statement - the Army can probably expect more of this sort of thing as they move from Ops to contingency (whatever that means!!)
As for them being in the Recce Platoon - many that I have met from that cadre tend to be quite arrogant and swagger around as if they are SF. Good at soldiering they definitely are, but they also can be a problem to lead as well.
They got what they deserved; the Cpl showed poor leadership qualities when he should have tried to deal with it through other means; and there are plenty of them to try. If they had exhausted all avenues and this was the last resort, well that tends to be a different story.
And a final general sweeping statement - the Army can probably expect more of this sort of thing as they move from Ops to contingency (whatever that means!!)
The reason they put them in the clinker before discharge is that it will go on their criminal record as having received a custodial sentence. MCTC is the punishment, discharge is the admin process - debate all you want the merits of that but the individuals were damn stupid to do what they did - not a surprise mind you as a majority in the Army are quite retarded!!
Gen.....apparently the better option to staying in the Army to them. Which says something about the Army and its leadership I would suggest.
Any way you try to spin it....the message that gets slung out is the Army needs to reassess its situation re Morale, Discipline, and Leadership.
The Fish rots from the Head, remember....and far more effect can be had by "shooting a few Admirals than hanging many Matelots" or whatever it was said about the Royal Navy at one time.
The same concept applies to the British Army.....sack some Generals and the rest of the Officer Corps will take note. Commanding Officers at every level hold a very real obligation to look after the Troops....it is the very basic tenant of Military Leadership.
I have to assume you lot are taught that at Sandhurst are you not?
Or are you still able to purchase a Commission these days?
Any way you try to spin it....the message that gets slung out is the Army needs to reassess its situation re Morale, Discipline, and Leadership.
The Fish rots from the Head, remember....and far more effect can be had by "shooting a few Admirals than hanging many Matelots" or whatever it was said about the Royal Navy at one time.
The same concept applies to the British Army.....sack some Generals and the rest of the Officer Corps will take note. Commanding Officers at every level hold a very real obligation to look after the Troops....it is the very basic tenant of Military Leadership.
I have to assume you lot are taught that at Sandhurst are you not?
Or are you still able to purchase a Commission these days?
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SSless
Another post full of professional respect, maturity, common sense, wisdom and subject knowledge from our little punchy friend from across the water.
Another post full of professional respect, maturity, common sense, wisdom and subject knowledge from our little punchy friend from across the water.
Yet another refusal to address the points offered....but an attempt at personal insult which fails as usual.
What is it about some of you Brits....when an American offers the exact same criticism as made previously by a fellow Brit....you resort to such responses as you do but not to your fellows?
I suppose you might be part of the Officer Class that is being criticized and think it a personal attack somehow.....are you being over sensitive or just embarrassed by what happened and the public questioning of the situation that led to this sad event?
We had one well publicized instance of Troops refusing to comply with an Officer's Orders....filmed by a News Crew during the very late stages of the Vietnam War.
The Platoon Leader had issued orders for his unit to walk down a Trail deep in Bad Guy Country....a practice well understood to result in bad results as it sets the unit up for an Ambush. The Officer would not listen to reason....insisted...and the Troops refused. It took the Company Commander's intervention to get the Troops moving.
No one was at risk in the incident that is being discussed here....but the Leadership failure is just as plain. You cannot hide it....you cannot spin it.
You have an Army that is ending a 15 Year or so nearly continuous deployment to Combat, a harsh downsizing of forces, huge cuts in budget, cuts in Training and Equipment.....and that is going to cause problems.
We are having the same budget cutbacks and downsizing...but so far Morale and Discipline seems to be holding up....but we learned from our problems post-Vietnam.
Good Leadership is especially critical with all this going on.
Are your Lions being led by Donkey's again?
What is it about some of you Brits....when an American offers the exact same criticism as made previously by a fellow Brit....you resort to such responses as you do but not to your fellows?
I suppose you might be part of the Officer Class that is being criticized and think it a personal attack somehow.....are you being over sensitive or just embarrassed by what happened and the public questioning of the situation that led to this sad event?
We had one well publicized instance of Troops refusing to comply with an Officer's Orders....filmed by a News Crew during the very late stages of the Vietnam War.
The Platoon Leader had issued orders for his unit to walk down a Trail deep in Bad Guy Country....a practice well understood to result in bad results as it sets the unit up for an Ambush. The Officer would not listen to reason....insisted...and the Troops refused. It took the Company Commander's intervention to get the Troops moving.
No one was at risk in the incident that is being discussed here....but the Leadership failure is just as plain. You cannot hide it....you cannot spin it.
You have an Army that is ending a 15 Year or so nearly continuous deployment to Combat, a harsh downsizing of forces, huge cuts in budget, cuts in Training and Equipment.....and that is going to cause problems.
We are having the same budget cutbacks and downsizing...but so far Morale and Discipline seems to be holding up....but we learned from our problems post-Vietnam.
Good Leadership is especially critical with all this going on.
Are your Lions being led by Donkey's again?
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As for them being in the Recce Platoon - many that I have met from that cadre tend to be quite arrogant and swagger around as if they are SF. Good at soldiering they definitely are, but they also can be a problem to lead as well.
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I don't often agree with SASless says but in this instance I cannot help but agree with him.
Perhaps Genstabler should reflect on the fact that SAS has experience in the field in a war and has every right to comment on leadership or lack of it.
ACW
Perhaps Genstabler should reflect on the fact that SAS has experience in the field in a war and has every right to comment on leadership or lack of it.
ACW
Stones and Glass Houses
Would the RAF and RN please stop criticising the British Army. 
While “only” a civvy, I am rather proud of the fact I have been formally disciplined twice, once each by senior RAF and RN officers, and received numerous adverse comments from them in annual reports, for refusing to obey lawful orders. I may actually be unique in the Civil Service.
In both cases, my offence was to refuse point blank to commit fraud. In my defence, I thought them illegal orders, but even more senior RAF and RN officers said not, confirmed by 6 Ministers, PUS and the Head of the Civil Service. That remains their decision to this day.
The Army declined to discipline me. Rather, they tended to listen and on the last occasion a Brigadier spoke for me at my hearing. He was ignored.
My point? The MoD has gone to the dogs, and this latest case is just another example. The Army is shown in a poor light, but I’ve seen much worse from the RAF and RN. And FAR worse from the Civil Service.
While “only” a civvy, I am rather proud of the fact I have been formally disciplined twice, once each by senior RAF and RN officers, and received numerous adverse comments from them in annual reports, for refusing to obey lawful orders. I may actually be unique in the Civil Service.
In both cases, my offence was to refuse point blank to commit fraud. In my defence, I thought them illegal orders, but even more senior RAF and RN officers said not, confirmed by 6 Ministers, PUS and the Head of the Civil Service. That remains their decision to this day.
The Army declined to discipline me. Rather, they tended to listen and on the last occasion a Brigadier spoke for me at my hearing. He was ignored.
My point? The MoD has gone to the dogs, and this latest case is just another example. The Army is shown in a poor light, but I’ve seen much worse from the RAF and RN. And FAR worse from the Civil Service.
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Gen,
Well have you? Unusual for aircrew to have grunt like experience!
ACW
ps I have not as being a pilot in the Cold War does not qualify me.
As I commanded a VGS on an Army base for 10 years I have quite a lot of experience of said force.
Suggest we stop bickering as I agree with a lot of you edit.
Well have you? Unusual for aircrew to have grunt like experience!
ACW
ps I have not as being a pilot in the Cold War does not qualify me.
As I commanded a VGS on an Army base for 10 years I have quite a lot of experience of said force.
Suggest we stop bickering as I agree with a lot of you edit.
You are more than welcome to argue about the relative merits of current Leadership....of course. That is the point....you don't.....you delight in making personal digs rather than discuss the issues using your experience as a base.
My opinions are formed from both first hand experience and from continuing education by extensive reading on such matters.
As I served in Vietnam, i am of course very interested in how that War was fought, and how Strategy, Tactics, Leadership, and Politics affected the conduct of the War.
I am quite comfortable in speaking to our failures.....God Knows it cost us plenty in Lives, Limbs, and other very important ways.
When i look at the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I see way too many parallels to that of Vietnam. On some levels, primarily political and at the very senior levels of our Military Leadership.....the very same mistakes are being made yet again.
The British and American Military Forces are again in Transition....and holding it all together is going to take honest evaluations and some very strong backbone.
It is not just 19 Squaddies parking their Butts here.....it is a very large Red Flag being waved.
We have our Marine Snipers thing, Your Marine A, the 19, our guy that murdered a dozen or so Villagers, Drone Strikes hitting Wedding parties, Base closings, disbanding of entire units, proposed cuts in Pay, Benefits, Pensions, curtailment or canceling of Training, whole units being non-combat ready, mothballing of Ships,.....and a continuing or growing threat from those hostile to us.
We need the best Leadership we can get.....white washing the situation is only going to make things far worse.
As always....the ones that have "led" us here....are the ones that are in the position to make the changes....and that is not going to happen unless they are forced to do so.
My opinions are formed from both first hand experience and from continuing education by extensive reading on such matters.
As I served in Vietnam, i am of course very interested in how that War was fought, and how Strategy, Tactics, Leadership, and Politics affected the conduct of the War.
I am quite comfortable in speaking to our failures.....God Knows it cost us plenty in Lives, Limbs, and other very important ways.
When i look at the Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan I see way too many parallels to that of Vietnam. On some levels, primarily political and at the very senior levels of our Military Leadership.....the very same mistakes are being made yet again.
The British and American Military Forces are again in Transition....and holding it all together is going to take honest evaluations and some very strong backbone.
It is not just 19 Squaddies parking their Butts here.....it is a very large Red Flag being waved.
We have our Marine Snipers thing, Your Marine A, the 19, our guy that murdered a dozen or so Villagers, Drone Strikes hitting Wedding parties, Base closings, disbanding of entire units, proposed cuts in Pay, Benefits, Pensions, curtailment or canceling of Training, whole units being non-combat ready, mothballing of Ships,.....and a continuing or growing threat from those hostile to us.
We need the best Leadership we can get.....white washing the situation is only going to make things far worse.
As always....the ones that have "led" us here....are the ones that are in the position to make the changes....and that is not going to happen unless they are forced to do so.
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ACW
Absolutely. Agreed.
I mustn't keep rising to you know whom, but he's a bit like an annoying mosquito buzzing round your head. Ignore or swot? Ignore I think.
Suggest we stop bickering as I agree with a lot of you edit.
I mustn't keep rising to you know whom, but he's a bit like an annoying mosquito buzzing round your head. Ignore or swot? Ignore I think.
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The issue is the way they have gone about airing their grievances with mass refusal to follow orders.
We probably won't know until they are released from the clink and hopefully spill the beans to the press. The military cannot operate in its own little world any more. Good.
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With 18 years behind me and being a WO2 I feel distinctly uneasy about this affair.
1. Where was the CO?
2. Where was the RSM?
3. Was the platoon commander was not up to the job, as 'suggested' by the lads he commanded. Was that covered up?
4. Where and what did the 2ic, the colour sergeant, do about there own apparent drunkeness and why didn't they remove themselves?
The answer to all these questions seems to point directly at lack of discipline, a total lack of leadership and I don't think I can remember what Kings/Queens regs are concerning two platoon commanders drinking whilst on duty and not in a fit state to lead 16 squaddies. I can well imagine that they were somewhat pi**ed off with being led "by muppets."
The chain of command in this case was that the company Sgt, Major should have been informed and then the RSM. Someone then should have been put in the guard room but not the whole 16 in my view.
How can the regiment allow a SNCO and a Captain off the hook when neither of them were fit to command - I am afraid I have to assume that.
How did they get off the hook? Who helped them? The RSM, the CO, the Adjutant who?
This whole episode stinks of a massive cover up and both platoon commanders got away with it by meetings that would have bounced off all the regiment commanders 'what to do?
Disobeying a lawful order is bound to get you into trouble, look what happened in WW1 when a few hundred were executed for cowardice, or disobeying orders. Only to have them rescinded 4 or 5 years back. Times have changed and men are now allowed to air their grievances - this was IMHO such a case but it didn't happen on the day - WHY?
I think the corporal of the group should have taken this step. If he did who told him that there would be a court martial. As it turns out the court was harsh - most definitely.
The worst of this case is that the judge advocate has ruined careers but the senior officers walked away without answering the charges that should have been addressed to them.
I hope that this backfires when they are released and then they can bring the whole sorry mess into the open. It may then make some people who run the regiment sit up and take stock when it all comes out.
Not a long time to wait.
1. Where was the CO?
2. Where was the RSM?
3. Was the platoon commander was not up to the job, as 'suggested' by the lads he commanded. Was that covered up?
4. Where and what did the 2ic, the colour sergeant, do about there own apparent drunkeness and why didn't they remove themselves?
The answer to all these questions seems to point directly at lack of discipline, a total lack of leadership and I don't think I can remember what Kings/Queens regs are concerning two platoon commanders drinking whilst on duty and not in a fit state to lead 16 squaddies. I can well imagine that they were somewhat pi**ed off with being led "by muppets."
The chain of command in this case was that the company Sgt, Major should have been informed and then the RSM. Someone then should have been put in the guard room but not the whole 16 in my view.
How can the regiment allow a SNCO and a Captain off the hook when neither of them were fit to command - I am afraid I have to assume that.
How did they get off the hook? Who helped them? The RSM, the CO, the Adjutant who?
This whole episode stinks of a massive cover up and both platoon commanders got away with it by meetings that would have bounced off all the regiment commanders 'what to do?
Disobeying a lawful order is bound to get you into trouble, look what happened in WW1 when a few hundred were executed for cowardice, or disobeying orders. Only to have them rescinded 4 or 5 years back. Times have changed and men are now allowed to air their grievances - this was IMHO such a case but it didn't happen on the day - WHY?
I think the corporal of the group should have taken this step. If he did who told him that there would be a court martial. As it turns out the court was harsh - most definitely.
The worst of this case is that the judge advocate has ruined careers but the senior officers walked away without answering the charges that should have been addressed to them.
I hope that this backfires when they are released and then they can bring the whole sorry mess into the open. It may then make some people who run the regiment sit up and take stock when it all comes out.
Not a long time to wait.
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ST
I am sorry but I really do not understand a lot of your post. You say you are a WO2 but I infer from your posting history that you are not Army so you won't really understand how things work in a tribal organisation like a British infantry battalion. The rest of the Army probably don't either!
All I can say is that I am as sure as I can be that there will be no cover up conspiracy. That is not to say that they will wash their dirty linen in public, but believe me, it will be washed.
I am also sure that, even though they have not been subject to disciplinary action (what could they be charged with and on what evidence) the Pl Comd and the SNCO will not have got away with allowing their platoon to get into such a state that they mutinied in public in front of the Brigade Commander. The CO's career is also finished. After his Battalion pulled a stunt like that he ain't going anywhere. The RSM will not get a QM commission.
Whoever was responsible for what, a once proud Regiment's name is now mud. That will really hurt every officer and soldier in it for a very long time to come.
I am sorry but I really do not understand a lot of your post. You say you are a WO2 but I infer from your posting history that you are not Army so you won't really understand how things work in a tribal organisation like a British infantry battalion. The rest of the Army probably don't either!
All I can say is that I am as sure as I can be that there will be no cover up conspiracy. That is not to say that they will wash their dirty linen in public, but believe me, it will be washed.
I am also sure that, even though they have not been subject to disciplinary action (what could they be charged with and on what evidence) the Pl Comd and the SNCO will not have got away with allowing their platoon to get into such a state that they mutinied in public in front of the Brigade Commander. The CO's career is also finished. After his Battalion pulled a stunt like that he ain't going anywhere. The RSM will not get a QM commission.
Whoever was responsible for what, a once proud Regiment's name is now mud. That will really hurt every officer and soldier in it for a very long time to come.
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You say you are a WO2 but I infer from your posting history that you are not Army so you won't really understand how things work in a tribal organisation like a British infantry battalion. The rest of the Army probably don't either!
All I can say is that I am as sure as I can be that there will be no cover up conspiracy. That is not to say that they will wash their dirty linen in public, but believe me, it will be washed.
The regulations, although I do not have one now, show clearly what should happen but it was down to the platoon commander who showed, from where I sit, a dereliction of duty and lousy leadership.
I was trying a few days ago to get a feel of how the courts martial was ordered. The Brigader may have done so or it may have been ordered by the advocacy. THEN, I would agree that C/Sgt up will lose their jobs - then it would just be a case of how many.
As I said, we will not have to wait long to find out.
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I was trying a few days ago to get a feel of how the courts martial was ordered.
The individuals at this stage have a Right to refuse the punishment and opt for CM. Once that decision is made, the CM is the only way forwards. Regardless of fall-out and embarrasment.
In short, the ' offenders' were in the driving seat up to the MT journey to Colchester. Though arguably they still are; for what have they got to lose when they get out if the Press pack pay them a visit.
There will be public naming and shaming to come I suspect, and woh-betide if the Regt has skeletons falling out of the cupboards.
It should be about the 8th Feb that the next round of news on this is available.