Ouch.... seems a Harsh sentence
Rumour over on ARRSE reckons this has something to do with the PC and CSM turning up drunk on a winter night ex a few months before.
Sample size of one, but the only recent young Army Officer I've worked with was the most aggressively incompetent arsehole it's ever been my misfortune to encounter. I used to like 'em back in Cold War days.
Sample size of one, but the only recent young Army Officer I've worked with was the most aggressively incompetent arsehole it's ever been my misfortune to encounter. I used to like 'em back in Cold War days.
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It's sad to see the expected proportion of posters who only see in black and white. One might expect grayscale at least, but obviously colour would be a step too far for such a regimented bunch.
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It seems from what I have read that the Battalion was going through a major reorganisation and amalgamation upheaval. That is a traumatic event for a proud Regiment with centuries of its history and traditions suddenly lost or discounted. Believe me, I know. Strong leadership from the top down is essential at such a time to establish new unit identity, pride and corporate loyalty.
That may be why it's discipline had broken down. It is clear that there was a leadership problem within this particular company and the section had lost trust, confidence in and respect for the officer and SNCO. However, by choosing to express their feelings so publicly, they left the authorities no choice but to come down on them publicly and like a ton of bricks. Any weakness would have given the wrong message.
The cpl showed he has a strong personality and could influence the toms, but that is not necessarily leadership. He completely misread the situation and showed disloyalty, disrespect, indiscipline and woefully bad judgement. He was an army NCO, not a trades unionist. He betrayed his men and his unit. He had to go.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.
Be assured, the captain and sgt no longer have careers, though there will be no official action. In all likelihood the CO is finished too. A sad business for a once proud unit showing an inherent vulnerability within the traditional British Regimental system.
That may be why it's discipline had broken down. It is clear that there was a leadership problem within this particular company and the section had lost trust, confidence in and respect for the officer and SNCO. However, by choosing to express their feelings so publicly, they left the authorities no choice but to come down on them publicly and like a ton of bricks. Any weakness would have given the wrong message.
The cpl showed he has a strong personality and could influence the toms, but that is not necessarily leadership. He completely misread the situation and showed disloyalty, disrespect, indiscipline and woefully bad judgement. He was an army NCO, not a trades unionist. He betrayed his men and his unit. He had to go.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.
Be assured, the captain and sgt no longer have careers, though there will be no official action. In all likelihood the CO is finished too. A sad business for a once proud unit showing an inherent vulnerability within the traditional British Regimental system.
Just looked who they are made up from.
And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.
I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.
The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.
And I suspect whats happened is that the amalgamated orbat has been made up by some one on drugs. They will have swapped snco`s and officers around and kept the junior ranks in there established groups.
I suspect the junior ranks were green howards and the managment team were from one of the other foot regiments possibly the havercakes. There will have been a huge clash of culture between the light infantry and the line infantry mentality.
The howards division is due to be split up soon anway according to wiki. So it could be that tempory snco and ic were put in because the unit was being broken up anyway in 12 months. They will have kept the good ruperts/snco in the other two divisions which were to remain.
Baffman.
Whilst I suspect there is more to this than is being openly reported I wonder how this would have been dealt with in 'the good old days' that people keep talking about on Prune? My guess is there wouldn't have been any charges raised, thus no opportunity to take it to CM, but more a bit of 'good old fashioned attitude re-adjustments' at the hands of the discip staffs.
Mind you we were in Aden on active service which may have influenced the outcome.
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The cpl showed he has a strong personality and could influence the toms, but that is not necessarily leadership. He completely misread the situation and showed disloyalty, disrespect, indiscipline and woefully bad judgement. He was an army NCO, not a trades unionist. He betrayed his men and his unit. He had to go.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.
Had he been wiser he could have had an informal chat with the CSM. The CSM could then have had an informal chat with the Company Commander. The OC would then have been aware of a problem and could have sorted out the officer and SNCO without resorting to official disciplinary action. That is what would have happened in my Battalion.
There are definitely ways for airmen in specific trades to register dissatisfaction with their leaders so it does get noticed and acted upon but perhaps those ways are more limited if you're in the infantry.. ?
I remember a delightful Enginering Officer who was known throughout the service as being a complete and utter cnut. And he was. When posted to St Athan as a Jengo it took but a few weeks for his man management skills to lead those under his command to effectively bring things to a standstill.
Fortunately the Sengo noticed and had the wisdom to invite the Chief Tech into his office for 'a quiet chat' about the problem. There were no announcements but the Jengo was posted shortly after.
CS
Last edited by cargosales; 11th Dec 2013 at 07:17. Reason: info
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This is a completely different kettle of fish.
This a staged event in front of a Brigadier inspecting.
Then all of them refuse charges and request CM's then plead guilty. So as the Brigadier was a witness he couldn't have anything to do with the board and neither could anyone else in the regiment. So its a complete airing of the regiments dirty washing to division level. Isn't there a number of CM's before a regiment is deemed to have a discipline problem and Division then has to take an active role.
This is taking on the command chain up to Major-General level and to be quite honest winning. It might very well mean that the regiment is split up one division worth of men getting sent north and the other south to get split up.
That's planning way way above your squaddies pay scale and knowledge.
What's happen is that 16 men have taken on a regiment and possibly destroyed it. They didn't care if they got chucked out without pension. The only thing they could have done worse was if the Duke of York was present.
What on earth did the Brigadier do when it happened? Did he step forward and deal with it or did he turn his back and walk away. If he walked away that's him finished as well.
This a staged event in front of a Brigadier inspecting.
Then all of them refuse charges and request CM's then plead guilty. So as the Brigadier was a witness he couldn't have anything to do with the board and neither could anyone else in the regiment. So its a complete airing of the regiments dirty washing to division level. Isn't there a number of CM's before a regiment is deemed to have a discipline problem and Division then has to take an active role.
This is taking on the command chain up to Major-General level and to be quite honest winning. It might very well mean that the regiment is split up one division worth of men getting sent north and the other south to get split up.
That's planning way way above your squaddies pay scale and knowledge.
What's happen is that 16 men have taken on a regiment and possibly destroyed it. They didn't care if they got chucked out without pension. The only thing they could have done worse was if the Duke of York was present.
What on earth did the Brigadier do when it happened? Did he step forward and deal with it or did he turn his back and walk away. If he walked away that's him finished as well.
More speculative nonsense, I'm afraid.
I won't go through it line by line but for one thing, the Brigadier wouldn't have had a role in the court martial anyway, nor would he have been required as a witness. Might I suggest there were more than enough witnesses present!
As for this:
The Brigade Commander would have been start raving bonkers to follow that advice. This isn't that nice poem someone quoted earlier about Wellington.
I won't go through it line by line but for one thing, the Brigadier wouldn't have had a role in the court martial anyway, nor would he have been required as a witness. Might I suggest there were more than enough witnesses present!
As for this:
What on earth did the Brigadier do when it happened? Did he step forward and deal with it or did he turn his back and walk away. If he walked away that's him finished as well.
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Thank the lord I was never involved in infantry regiments then.
That's exactly what the brigadier did in Germany when there was a problem with one of the big workshops. The Brigadier REME BAOR stepped forward and commanded respect. The craftsmen were removed from the stag list, most of the power packs requiring splitting got backloaded to the UK. Overtime was cancelled and they got removed from the Orbat of the armoured cavalry and got on with there jobs fixing things instead of guarding them.
I still can't see the Yorkshire regiment surviving this and why should they if the management can let this happen.
That's exactly what the brigadier did in Germany when there was a problem with one of the big workshops. The Brigadier REME BAOR stepped forward and commanded respect. The craftsmen were removed from the stag list, most of the power packs requiring splitting got backloaded to the UK. Overtime was cancelled and they got removed from the Orbat of the armoured cavalry and got on with there jobs fixing things instead of guarding them.
I still can't see the Yorkshire regiment surviving this and why should they if the management can let this happen.
They didn't care if they got chucked out without pension.
Look, our troops are fab- but some of them are as thick as molasses in January- they have shot people on video, and given nazi salutes in front of the flag. There's every likelihood (in my speculation) that they didn't think it through, and perhaps now very much care that they got chucked out. Unless that was the plan!
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Cargosales
You are reading it incorrectly. They were not the two in question. This was the Bn Recce Platoon. The Capt was the Platoon Commander and the SNCO was the Platoon Sergeant. The cpl should have gone to the Company Sergeant Major who would then have briefed the Company Commander, a Major who could then have sorted it out unofficially.
The Recce Pl is tasked directly by Bn HQ so, although it is in the HQ Company orbat, the Company Commander has limited day to day responsibility for it. He is, however, in their chain for admin and discipline.
After such a public display of failure in their Battalion I suspect that the CO, OC HQ Coy and OC Recce Pl are all looking for other jobs. Their careers are finished. If that is what the cpl and his co-mutineers wanted then they got their wish, but at what a cost. So unnecessary and stupid.
If I'm reading it correctly then the Corporal wouldn't have achieved anything by having a 'quiet chat with the CSM' because the CSM was part of the problem. And the company Commander likewise.
The Recce Pl is tasked directly by Bn HQ so, although it is in the HQ Company orbat, the Company Commander has limited day to day responsibility for it. He is, however, in their chain for admin and discipline.
After such a public display of failure in their Battalion I suspect that the CO, OC HQ Coy and OC Recce Pl are all looking for other jobs. Their careers are finished. If that is what the cpl and his co-mutineers wanted then they got their wish, but at what a cost. So unnecessary and stupid.
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That is my understanding of it as well.
And if not the CSM, the RSM. Must have been other NCO's who could
possibly have at least listened to the Cpl.
Either way, a major break down in everything.
That is my understanding of it as well.
And if not the CSM, the RSM. Must have been other NCO's who could
possibly have at least listened to the Cpl.
Either way, a major break down in everything.
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But does anyone know if he approached the CSM with his grievance?
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Yes i do think they have been wronged in that there seems to have been a piss poor procedure in place to air their grievances, they must have known this would come out bad and the fact they have been driven to this last resort shows a total failing of the whole system. They call it a modern Army, unfortunately based on an antediluvian system.
I thought it should have been about 1/2 that, personally I cannot see the point in putting someone inside Colchester, (if it is indeed still there) when you are kicking him out of the Army.
I always thought punishment like that is to Rebrainwash you into the Armies way of thinking before you reintergrate back into the Army having supposedly learnt the error of your ways.. lets face it, they can shout and bark all they want at him at Colchester and it won't make a blindest bit of difference to him, all he has to do is sit down.
I thought it should have been about 1/2 that, personally I cannot see the point in putting someone inside Colchester, (if it is indeed still there) when you are kicking him out of the Army.
I always thought punishment like that is to Rebrainwash you into the Armies way of thinking before you reintergrate back into the Army having supposedly learnt the error of your ways.. lets face it, they can shout and bark all they want at him at Colchester and it won't make a blindest bit of difference to him, all he has to do is sit down.
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lets face it, they can shout and bark all they want at him at Colchester and it won't make a blindest bit of difference to him, all he has to do is sit down.
Oh my....such deprivation for forty days....then free.
Reading all the posts prompts me to ask a question.
When ever in the British Army....any Army for that matter....is it improper for a Corporal to bring a problem to a Sgt Major?
I am sure in every Army....the manner and tone of the complaint is hugely important....but in my Army and Marine Corps, that is exactly the role of the Sgt Major....to be the second line of communication about Enlisted Personnel's problems and and concerns.
It would appear to me....there were grave and significant problems in the Leadership of the entire Chain of Command.....clear up to Regimental Level.
Soldiers just don't sit down on the Job for no good reason. If the situation had gotten to that level....that tells you there was a complete failure of Leadership.
Far too often we have Commanders....and not Leaders.....and sadly the Failures seem to keep getting promoted for some inexplicable reason.
I have seen far more "Leadership" out of Lance Corporals than I have most Officers once they get past being a Platoon Leader.
Reading all the posts prompts me to ask a question.
When ever in the British Army....any Army for that matter....is it improper for a Corporal to bring a problem to a Sgt Major?
I am sure in every Army....the manner and tone of the complaint is hugely important....but in my Army and Marine Corps, that is exactly the role of the Sgt Major....to be the second line of communication about Enlisted Personnel's problems and and concerns.
It would appear to me....there were grave and significant problems in the Leadership of the entire Chain of Command.....clear up to Regimental Level.
Soldiers just don't sit down on the Job for no good reason. If the situation had gotten to that level....that tells you there was a complete failure of Leadership.
Far too often we have Commanders....and not Leaders.....and sadly the Failures seem to keep getting promoted for some inexplicable reason.
I have seen far more "Leadership" out of Lance Corporals than I have most Officers once they get past being a Platoon Leader.
Last edited by SASless; 11th Dec 2013 at 12:35.
Perhaps because he, amongst others, consider the accused's greivances to be legitimate.
The issue is the way they have gone about airing their grievances with mass refusal to follow orders.
Incompetent leadership doesn't mean mutiny.
As indicated by others there is clearly a failure of leadership right through here.
It is not like you can accused people of cowardice because they were not refusing to fight or refusing to go to a hot zone.