Ouch.... seems a Harsh sentence
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I can't see the Regiment surviving to be honest.
But the Yorks Kenya mutiny will be in Army History now forever.
More than likely the Cpl has already got the Sabre employee of the month award.
How does the criminal record work? They need an offence code for the record and there won't be a civi equivalent for the offense. I can't see it affecting any civi employment. Even for civi security passes which require a CRC there is a list of offences which are banning items. If your offence isn't in that list of offenses you will get a pass. Much amusement was had when it was found out that you could have done time for bestiality with farm animals and still get an airport pass. But get a police caution for stealing a mars bar and you couldn't.
But the Yorks Kenya mutiny will be in Army History now forever.
More than likely the Cpl has already got the Sabre employee of the month award.
How does the criminal record work? They need an offence code for the record and there won't be a civi equivalent for the offense. I can't see it affecting any civi employment. Even for civi security passes which require a CRC there is a list of offences which are banning items. If your offence isn't in that list of offenses you will get a pass. Much amusement was had when it was found out that you could have done time for bestiality with farm animals and still get an airport pass. But get a police caution for stealing a mars bar and you couldn't.
I wouldn't put too much store in the allegations concerning anything in the Regiment apart from the incindent that has been subject to enquiry and due process. It's all too easy for those charged with a crime to try to sling mud at their superiors. If the "sleeping at the finish line" incident even happened, what were the circumstances? If there hasn't been any action taken, is that because there was nothing to act against? Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't, but just because some pissed off squadies are making accusations, doesn't mean it did. Some here are posting as if this and other supposed failings are proven facts.
Just saying.
Just saying.
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Originally Posted by Mad Jock
Their recruitment will plummet now.
Some youth that I know have recently joined the RAF do not read or watch the news. They have no political awareness what so ever. One said he does not even read books or watch films and never votes in elections. All they do is watch Jeremy Kyle, maybe read the Sun (cannot call that trash a quality newspaper) and play on their xbox.
I doubt many who join, know the history of the unit they are joining. RAF India and Ceylon in 1946, anyone?
How does the criminal record work? They need an offence code for the record and there won't be a civi equivalent for the offense. I can't see it affecting any civi employment. Even for civi security passes which require a CRC there is a list of offences which are banning items. If your offence isn't in that list of offenses you will get a pass. Much amusement was had when it was found out that you could have done time for bestiality with farm animals and still get an airport pass. But get a police caution for stealing a mars bar and you couldn't.
Doubtful if going to Police / Fire etc that he would be considered but lots of others roles where being dismissed from services will have little bearing on future career.
Bearing in mind that as indicated there will be later press coverage and if court of public opinion (always fickle) finds in their favour then may not be such an issue.
As many employers these days just want someone who can turn up on time, do what they are asked to and come and do it again I am not sure it would count against him. As most employers put you on probation anyway they doing it for 3 months keeps you the job.
How does the criminal record work?
maybe read the Sun (cannot call that trash a quality newspaper)
CG (never reads newspapers)
How do these Soldiers get tagged for "Mutiny"?
The did not offer in any way to "remove, replace, or remove from authority" the Commander.
They refused an Order to "Stand UP!" and took actions to publicly embarrass the Commander.
Disobeying an Order....guilty.
Insubordination....guilty.
Contempt.....guilty.
Conduct Unbecoming....guilty.
Mutiny.....no way....innocent.
The did not offer in any way to "remove, replace, or remove from authority" the Commander.
They refused an Order to "Stand UP!" and took actions to publicly embarrass the Commander.
Disobeying an Order....guilty.
Insubordination....guilty.
Contempt.....guilty.
Conduct Unbecoming....guilty.
Mutiny.....no way....innocent.
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They weren't charged or convicted of mutiny for a variety of valid reasons, which is lucky for them. If a group of experienced soldiers conspire together to reject discipline and wilfully to disobey legal orders while on duty (a parade is a duty) with the excuse that they are not appreciated and don't like their commanders, that constitutes mutiny in my book. What would you call it? A work to rule? Civil disobedience?
Arrogant idiots, and I'm not talking about the officers. They've damaged a lot more than their own prospects and got the right verdict and punishment.
Arrogant idiots, and I'm not talking about the officers. They've damaged a lot more than their own prospects and got the right verdict and punishment.
What is British Military Law re "Mutiny"?
Ours is pretty straight forward.....it takes a usurpation of Command and is punishable by Death or other punishment as directed by a Court Martial.
Ours is pretty straight forward.....it takes a usurpation of Command and is punishable by Death or other punishment as directed by a Court Martial.
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Haven't a clue. Retired yonks ago and didn't bother to take my copies of QRs and MML with me. Got the Army list though which gives interesting background gen about our current crop of rising stars.
I agree with SASless on this occasion!
From the limited facts reported of the case, I am quite clear that a mutiny charge would NOT have been appropriate. "Mutiny" and "Disobedience of a lawful command" are both very serious offences, but you diminish the seriousness of the mutiny charge by using it where the lesser is applicable.
From recollection, the maximum prison sentences under the respective charges are Life, and 10 years, so the court martial was not constrained in its sentencing options.
The Manual of Service Law says that
As an aside, I am surprised at the enthusiasm of some posters for talking up one side or the other of what was indeed a serious and embarrassing episode, but hardly a unique event in history.
From the limited facts reported of the case, I am quite clear that a mutiny charge would NOT have been appropriate. "Mutiny" and "Disobedience of a lawful command" are both very serious offences, but you diminish the seriousness of the mutiny charge by using it where the lesser is applicable.
From recollection, the maximum prison sentences under the respective charges are Life, and 10 years, so the court martial was not constrained in its sentencing options.
The Manual of Service Law says that
Mutiny is the most serious of all forms of indiscipline, therefore, charges under this section should normally only be preferred when the facts disclose a concerted and deliberate challenge to authority which strikes at the very heart of discipline and is calculated to prejudice significantly the ability of a unit to carry out its role, task or duties.
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Past un-rest and Mutiny
When you look at many past un-rest in the ranks and even Officer Mutiny in recent times i.e. WW2 and onwards, there seem to be a common thread.
The thread is the building up reputation of units, telling them in layman terms, that the sun is shining from their arses, when operations for those units are at a high tempo. Then once the operations for those units is slowing down, casting them aside. All commanders are guilty of this in one way or another. You cannot blame the individuals getting a high ego or felling superior to other units.
There will be an awful lot of high strung Troops/Units out there who have been for the last 10 years or so, at the very highest level of commitment, now finding the Yes Sir No Sir three Bags Full Sir routine of normal Army/Service life almost difficult to cope with.
I think there will be a lot more of this to come as the forces wind down from Operation. Not Mutiny but un-rest or not Happy Hectors.
For the past few years the Armed Force have been in the public eye and fated in many ways, but will when life goes back to normal will be forgotten quicker than someone coming 2nd place in a sand castle competition.
Some links to past Mutiny
Morotai Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Salerno Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Promised by Monty they would fight with the 8th Army in Italy.
Mutiny in the RAF - Chapter 3
The thread is the building up reputation of units, telling them in layman terms, that the sun is shining from their arses, when operations for those units are at a high tempo. Then once the operations for those units is slowing down, casting them aside. All commanders are guilty of this in one way or another. You cannot blame the individuals getting a high ego or felling superior to other units.
There will be an awful lot of high strung Troops/Units out there who have been for the last 10 years or so, at the very highest level of commitment, now finding the Yes Sir No Sir three Bags Full Sir routine of normal Army/Service life almost difficult to cope with.
I think there will be a lot more of this to come as the forces wind down from Operation. Not Mutiny but un-rest or not Happy Hectors.
For the past few years the Armed Force have been in the public eye and fated in many ways, but will when life goes back to normal will be forgotten quicker than someone coming 2nd place in a sand castle competition.
Some links to past Mutiny
Morotai Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Salerno Mutiny - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Promised by Monty they would fight with the 8th Army in Italy.
Mutiny in the RAF - Chapter 3
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When men are in a position, where they are subject to the orders/actions of other men, there will sometimes come a time when enough is enough, but to compare the action of these squaddies with past mutinies is ridiculous. They wanted to draw attention to, what they considered to be, poor leadership. No one on this thread knows what was really going on in the background. However they made their grievances public, knowing full well they would be punished, and accordingly, have paid the (right) price.
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There are some fascinating cases listed on the aarse thread..
Bit of an odd one:"Group of soldiers 'mutinied over hungover bosses', court told" - Page 22
Obviously what follows is trivial compared to Yorks incident, AAJLR,1960,Omdurman Platoon.
The Troop functioned as a unit within 'B' Company until its end in late October of 1960.
The Troop was disbanded mainly because of the reaction of the Junior incumbents to a Scottish Officer who became the Troop Commander on the 2nd. of September 1960. This Officer was not an Officer nor Gentleman! He was a vicious, cruel and malicious person. His favourite routine was multiple 'Kit' inspections at any time of the day or night. During these he would pull a Junior Soldiers locker from the top and crash it to the floor, any damage done to kit or locker was then charged to the Junior Soldier. He would throw over beds and many other such actions. During Outward bound he would bully and tirade everyone. During Rifle Training he would strike people with their rifles. He should not have been sent to AAJLR.
This cruel mans actions resulted in 48 boys out of 52 going AWOL one night in late October of 1960. People had tried to speak out, but as with the military attitude of the era, no one listened, (Sic..No change there then) and those who did complain were marked men by this beast of a man.
Most of the Boys either surrendered or were taken into custody within 48 hours of absconding.
The authorities now had to listen and listen seriously.
Within seven days of the great escape, Omdurman Troop was disbanded and the junior soldiers were dispersed amongst the other Troops/Platoons and Company's of the Regiment.
Punishment was light for those first time AWOL Boys, habitual absentees got the full treatment though (The Guardroom could not hold them all). Later this absence was expunged from their records.
Many Omdurman Boys therefore saw service in three of the Company's within AAJLR.
And so the great denial of the existence of Omdurman Troop began.
PS not my words,I'd moved on by then.Lifted from AAJLR Site.
The Troop functioned as a unit within 'B' Company until its end in late October of 1960.
The Troop was disbanded mainly because of the reaction of the Junior incumbents to a Scottish Officer who became the Troop Commander on the 2nd. of September 1960. This Officer was not an Officer nor Gentleman! He was a vicious, cruel and malicious person. His favourite routine was multiple 'Kit' inspections at any time of the day or night. During these he would pull a Junior Soldiers locker from the top and crash it to the floor, any damage done to kit or locker was then charged to the Junior Soldier. He would throw over beds and many other such actions. During Outward bound he would bully and tirade everyone. During Rifle Training he would strike people with their rifles. He should not have been sent to AAJLR.
This cruel mans actions resulted in 48 boys out of 52 going AWOL one night in late October of 1960. People had tried to speak out, but as with the military attitude of the era, no one listened, (Sic..No change there then) and those who did complain were marked men by this beast of a man.
Most of the Boys either surrendered or were taken into custody within 48 hours of absconding.
The authorities now had to listen and listen seriously.
Within seven days of the great escape, Omdurman Troop was disbanded and the junior soldiers were dispersed amongst the other Troops/Platoons and Company's of the Regiment.
Punishment was light for those first time AWOL Boys, habitual absentees got the full treatment though (The Guardroom could not hold them all). Later this absence was expunged from their records.
Many Omdurman Boys therefore saw service in three of the Company's within AAJLR.
And so the great denial of the existence of Omdurman Troop began.
PS not my words,I'd moved on by then.Lifted from AAJLR Site.
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It does not say, but he is named
A.A.J.L.R. - About The Regiment
I Cannot believe the last RN mutiny was in 1970!
A.A.J.L.R. - About The Regiment
I Cannot believe the last RN mutiny was in 1970!
Seems she cannot trust the Plod either as someone keeps nicking the her Nuts.
I refer to the snacks she keeps in bowls in the hallways which seemed to forever being reduced by parties unknown.
I refer to the snacks she keeps in bowls in the hallways which seemed to forever being reduced by parties unknown.
Seems she cannot trust the Plod either as someone keeps nicking the her Nuts.
