Griffins In Akrotiri
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: TheDarkSide
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mmm, nice to see a bit of banter for a change...
If I recall correctly, 412 option for Cyprus was common knowledge MAY 2001!!!
I hear from a Joint Helo Agency mate, that exchange option for the AAC is still on the table..could be an SNCO pilot or two in fact
The AAC have been conducting SAR Ops in Brunei for many years with 212..they just dont take a year to train! Mainly, jungle SAR, but have a back up over water role to Shell mates at Anduki and Air Wing at Berakas. They are likley to have same remit when 212 goes to Belize next June.
Dont throw stones in a glasshouse....you dont always need a fat wellow canary to achieve the same mission
If I recall correctly, 412 option for Cyprus was common knowledge MAY 2001!!!
I hear from a Joint Helo Agency mate, that exchange option for the AAC is still on the table..could be an SNCO pilot or two in fact
The AAC have been conducting SAR Ops in Brunei for many years with 212..they just dont take a year to train! Mainly, jungle SAR, but have a back up over water role to Shell mates at Anduki and Air Wing at Berakas. They are likley to have same remit when 212 goes to Belize next June.
Dont throw stones in a glasshouse....you dont always need a fat wellow canary to achieve the same mission
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Muff,
Of course you don’t need a year to train for SAR – neither do I recall anyone writing that you did – and anyone with a decent hover probably can do SAR. The yellow canaries come in handy when the weather’s crap, the seas are big and the casualty needs a little space and care once you’ve recovered him. As you well know, yellow canary SAR is a little different from the sort of SAR you mention.
Of course you don’t need a year to train for SAR – neither do I recall anyone writing that you did – and anyone with a decent hover probably can do SAR. The yellow canaries come in handy when the weather’s crap, the seas are big and the casualty needs a little space and care once you’ve recovered him. As you well know, yellow canary SAR is a little different from the sort of SAR you mention.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 1,797
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have done a SAR job (on exchange) with a single casualty in dreadful weather in a 412EP equiped with weather radar* and it was more than capable. However more than 1 casualty would have been an effing nightmare due to lack of space.
The Dutch also seem to manage with a 412SP, but frankly a yellow canary is significantly better for the job in hand.
.........and I am not SAR by trade!!
SAR Boyz..........Yes we know, but I would not do it as a primary task.
*Embedded CBs, High ground, heavy rain, low cloudbase. Colour coded weather radar & No Nav beacons /radar coverage. Just GPS and weather radar.
The Dutch also seem to manage with a 412SP, but frankly a yellow canary is significantly better for the job in hand.
.........and I am not SAR by trade!!
SAR Boyz..........Yes we know, but I would not do it as a primary task.
*Embedded CBs, High ground, heavy rain, low cloudbase. Colour coded weather radar & No Nav beacons /radar coverage. Just GPS and weather radar.
Muff Coupling and Sloppy - are you really going to try and pretend that what the AAC does in Brunei is SAR? Sitting in a hover winching a broken pongo out of a jungle clearing is not exactly running the full spectrum of SAROPS - would the AAC like to do a night deck on a sinking boat at the extreme of range and recover a dozen people? Not a chance in hell. Would you like to describe the extensive winch operating and winchman training that AAC crews are given before operating in Brunei - no probably not as they are only taught the very basics of winch operating (there is no winchman) by a Bristows pilot!
Any clown can kneel in the door and winch in and out (me included) but providing a professional winch operator who can cope with all aspects of SAROPs takes a lot of training which is why we do it the way we do.
Try talking to someone who has got a medal for a SAR job in Brunei (PC at MW) for example and he will tell you how f***ing hard it is without specially trained crews.
As for Belize - the AAC managed to get the Pumas out by claiming they could do all the jobs there with a Gazelle. This was much cheaper and was therefore carried out by a cost conscious MOD. The problem was that single pilot, single engine NVG clearings were not a clever idea and Lynx had to be sent to do the job instead. The Lynx is many things but it is not a SAR aircraft (homers? winch? stretcher carrying?) so please don't pretend that the role is anything like SAR.
The ex AAC pilots who have joined the RAF and gone SAR have all come to realise that the SAR role is very demanding and requires an extensive level of knowledge and training that the AAC cannot match.
The only reason that the 212 is going to Belize is because the Lynx is too expensive to operate there. Do please feel free to get a tour there and try a night letdown to an overwater hover and then pick up an object in the water (without crashing). Then come back and regale us with tales of how easy SAR is.
Any clown can kneel in the door and winch in and out (me included) but providing a professional winch operator who can cope with all aspects of SAROPs takes a lot of training which is why we do it the way we do.
Try talking to someone who has got a medal for a SAR job in Brunei (PC at MW) for example and he will tell you how f***ing hard it is without specially trained crews.
As for Belize - the AAC managed to get the Pumas out by claiming they could do all the jobs there with a Gazelle. This was much cheaper and was therefore carried out by a cost conscious MOD. The problem was that single pilot, single engine NVG clearings were not a clever idea and Lynx had to be sent to do the job instead. The Lynx is many things but it is not a SAR aircraft (homers? winch? stretcher carrying?) so please don't pretend that the role is anything like SAR.
The ex AAC pilots who have joined the RAF and gone SAR have all come to realise that the SAR role is very demanding and requires an extensive level of knowledge and training that the AAC cannot match.
The only reason that the 212 is going to Belize is because the Lynx is too expensive to operate there. Do please feel free to get a tour there and try a night letdown to an overwater hover and then pick up an object in the water (without crashing). Then come back and regale us with tales of how easy SAR is.
That'll be another reaction then!
Those of you careful readers will note the original dig was regards the loss of a posting to the RAF with a cynical dig that JHC is in fact RAF and therefore are looking after themselves. Cross training a man to another type but same task is sensible. I would hazard a guess that SAR is as taxing in any of these places with perhaps the jungle offering it's own problems as Cyprus does it's own. Around Britains shores is a different kettle of fish and recognised. With regards to the AAC ability to achieve SAR, it is like anything, given the kit and training, I am sure it could be done.
Question: Why has the SAR task in Belize not been taken back by the RAF? Is this because Cyprus is closer or is it because Belize is a p** hole?
Finally, just to put Mr Crab back onto his podium and off his high horse, I do not recall either myself or Mr Muff saying that SAR was easy. If he wishes tales of derring do, we all have them to tell in some form or another.
Winching a broken pongo out of a jungle clearing is a facet of SAR so we must be doing (not pretending) something. Firing a mini gun from a Chinook is not armed action but it is action using arms. Accept it, SAR in all it's forms is not the exclusive preserve of the RAF, go on, giz us a go, I can do that! I want a posting to Cyprus!
Those of you careful readers will note the original dig was regards the loss of a posting to the RAF with a cynical dig that JHC is in fact RAF and therefore are looking after themselves. Cross training a man to another type but same task is sensible. I would hazard a guess that SAR is as taxing in any of these places with perhaps the jungle offering it's own problems as Cyprus does it's own. Around Britains shores is a different kettle of fish and recognised. With regards to the AAC ability to achieve SAR, it is like anything, given the kit and training, I am sure it could be done.
Question: Why has the SAR task in Belize not been taken back by the RAF? Is this because Cyprus is closer or is it because Belize is a p** hole?
Finally, just to put Mr Crab back onto his podium and off his high horse, I do not recall either myself or Mr Muff saying that SAR was easy. If he wishes tales of derring do, we all have them to tell in some form or another.
Winching a broken pongo out of a jungle clearing is a facet of SAR so we must be doing (not pretending) something. Firing a mini gun from a Chinook is not armed action but it is action using arms. Accept it, SAR in all it's forms is not the exclusive preserve of the RAF, go on, giz us a go, I can do that! I want a posting to Cyprus!
Sloppy, the crab is not back in his box or off his high horse - as usual the AAC (which I presume you are a member of) chose to use this forum to have a go at the RAF. I have extensive experience in both camps and whilst there are some very professional aviators in the AAC, the majority of pilots, be they SNCOs or officers have a greatly over-inflated opinion of their own abilities. I have lost count of the times I have heard how an AAC Cpl pilot is the equal of a Flt Lt in terms of skill and professionalism and I have one word on that matter - boll8ks.
The input standard to training is lower (lower scores required on aptitude tests) the training itself, post DHFS, is vastly inferior (partly due to poor manning and terrible serviceability coupled with an urgent need to put bums on seats), the chop rate through training is low (because of the need to put bums on seats) and the number of flying hours available on the Sqns is pitiful (with the probable exception of 5 Regt). If you are given the right people, the right training and the right equipment you can be capable of operating in extreme environments but the AAC has few of the former, vague ideas about the second and none of the last (AH 64 might change things a bit but I won't hold my breath).
The input standard to training is lower (lower scores required on aptitude tests) the training itself, post DHFS, is vastly inferior (partly due to poor manning and terrible serviceability coupled with an urgent need to put bums on seats), the chop rate through training is low (because of the need to put bums on seats) and the number of flying hours available on the Sqns is pitiful (with the probable exception of 5 Regt). If you are given the right people, the right training and the right equipment you can be capable of operating in extreme environments but the AAC has few of the former, vague ideas about the second and none of the last (AH 64 might change things a bit but I won't hold my breath).
Crab@etc,
I found your first paragraph unnecessarily hostile, and demeaning to the AAC operators in N Borneo.
I recently returned from Loan Service with the RBAirF (Air Wing? wossat?), and remember 2 occasions which may be of interest to you. The first, while I was out of country on leave, involved a nighttime callout 80nm+ N of Bandar. The Bruneian duty crew - a very SAR-uncurrent Blackhawk foursome - declared themselves unable to comply; probably quite rightly in view of the state of their training. The AAC at the other end accepted the task and carried it out successfully. Now, you can argue the merits or otherwise of night decks without coupled-everything and 20 hours training per month, but the fact is that they did it.
The other occasion was (yet another) army exped in trouble in Lowes Gully near Gg Kota Kinabalu, across the border in Sabah. Again, the AAC launched and effected a successful rescue not only of the original survivors but, I believe, of a couple of Central Europeans who were grateful of the extract but miffed at having to leave their kit behind.
Now, I agree that both undertakings may have been a lot easier and stress-less if the operators practised constantly for these tasks and little else. However, your dismissal of their skills without full knowledge of recent events is unacceptable to me.
Oh, and hovering over a jungle clearing in Temburong in the middle of a thunderstorm is easily as challenging as anything I ever did around the coasts of the UK...
Don't be so easily baited by the last line in Muff Cup's wind-up - he may be right when he says that a paraffin budgie isn't always necessary, but a more reasoned, less aggressively impetuous reply might get your message across better.
I found your first paragraph unnecessarily hostile, and demeaning to the AAC operators in N Borneo.
I recently returned from Loan Service with the RBAirF (Air Wing? wossat?), and remember 2 occasions which may be of interest to you. The first, while I was out of country on leave, involved a nighttime callout 80nm+ N of Bandar. The Bruneian duty crew - a very SAR-uncurrent Blackhawk foursome - declared themselves unable to comply; probably quite rightly in view of the state of their training. The AAC at the other end accepted the task and carried it out successfully. Now, you can argue the merits or otherwise of night decks without coupled-everything and 20 hours training per month, but the fact is that they did it.
The other occasion was (yet another) army exped in trouble in Lowes Gully near Gg Kota Kinabalu, across the border in Sabah. Again, the AAC launched and effected a successful rescue not only of the original survivors but, I believe, of a couple of Central Europeans who were grateful of the extract but miffed at having to leave their kit behind.
Now, I agree that both undertakings may have been a lot easier and stress-less if the operators practised constantly for these tasks and little else. However, your dismissal of their skills without full knowledge of recent events is unacceptable to me.
Oh, and hovering over a jungle clearing in Temburong in the middle of a thunderstorm is easily as challenging as anything I ever did around the coasts of the UK...
Don't be so easily baited by the last line in Muff Cup's wind-up - he may be right when he says that a paraffin budgie isn't always necessary, but a more reasoned, less aggressively impetuous reply might get your message across better.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 194
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Crab@somewhereotherthanSAAvn:
It cant be that hard, they let you do it mate. When are you going to change your nickname?
I had two lovely years at 16 Flt and it is a shame that the AAC will no longer be part of Athrodites Isle. Rumour has it that exchange posts were offered, but turned down by Wallop, just a rumour of course.
As to the AAC ability to conduct SAR? There is more than one way to peel an orange. As with most flying disciplines with the Brit rotary world, if you want the Gold plated version and you have taxpayers money to burn, go Crab. If you want the other end of the market, my own firm does a very good job, and great value for money. If you want a middle ground solution, then the fisheads are your men. Simple graph. Value for money on the Y scale and cost on the other. See where your X's lie. CBF clearly has a very big pot of dosh.
Imagine if they stopped the crabs going to cyprus though, where would they get sunshine and a rest away from NI? Not a bad thing to share it around i think. Create a few exchange posts and lets mix a bit more and then [email protected] can have another tour with us, as his love of the 'white van drivers of aviation' seems to have worn off.
It cant be that hard, they let you do it mate. When are you going to change your nickname?
I had two lovely years at 16 Flt and it is a shame that the AAC will no longer be part of Athrodites Isle. Rumour has it that exchange posts were offered, but turned down by Wallop, just a rumour of course.
As to the AAC ability to conduct SAR? There is more than one way to peel an orange. As with most flying disciplines with the Brit rotary world, if you want the Gold plated version and you have taxpayers money to burn, go Crab. If you want the other end of the market, my own firm does a very good job, and great value for money. If you want a middle ground solution, then the fisheads are your men. Simple graph. Value for money on the Y scale and cost on the other. See where your X's lie. CBF clearly has a very big pot of dosh.
Imagine if they stopped the crabs going to cyprus though, where would they get sunshine and a rest away from NI? Not a bad thing to share it around i think. Create a few exchange posts and lets mix a bit more and then [email protected] can have another tour with us, as his love of the 'white van drivers of aviation' seems to have worn off.
All of which only goes to prove how easy it is to get a reaction when you post something contentious SL and Muff C - it's a rather childish pasttime isn't it?
No, I don't hate the AAC and no I don't denigrate the job that the guys in Brunei do - a SAROP is a SAROP wherever you do it, but I bet the blokes doing night decks wished they had had a chance to practise it before having to do it for real - they did well.
Jeep you are right, they do let me do it and chuffing hard work a lot of the night stuff is too. And I would have stayed at MW if they had let me drive the AH! If I change my nickname no-one will know who I am then I can write some really contentious stuff - great idea!
No, I don't hate the AAC and no I don't denigrate the job that the guys in Brunei do - a SAROP is a SAROP wherever you do it, but I bet the blokes doing night decks wished they had had a chance to practise it before having to do it for real - they did well.
Jeep you are right, they do let me do it and chuffing hard work a lot of the night stuff is too. And I would have stayed at MW if they had let me drive the AH! If I change my nickname no-one will know who I am then I can write some really contentious stuff - great idea!
Thread Starter
Now that 3 of the RAF's brand new three engined rotary has made it all the way to Akr, why not just throw a winch on them and replace the Wsx now. Oh I forgot that might not fit in with the contract.
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: TheDarkSide
Posts: 112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bloody hell Crab @SAAvn..if I had known you were going to bust a blood vessel on this thread I would have said something even more contentious!!
Sloppy, Jeep,Thud & Blunder & Red Sikorsky Bruv all make the same point..no-one (including me) ever said that any form of SAR was easy!!..and there are many ways to skin a cat..and the King is only one platform. Sadly, it is getting past its sell by date, hence the root of the thread..412 to Cyprus. Chill
Sloppy, Jeep,Thud & Blunder & Red Sikorsky Bruv all make the same point..no-one (including me) ever said that any form of SAR was easy!!..and there are many ways to skin a cat..and the King is only one platform. Sadly, it is getting past its sell by date, hence the root of the thread..412 to Cyprus. Chill
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: down sarrf
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Has anyone else noticed that if the crabs slag off Army Aviation it's reasoned debate but when the Army fight back or whinge about the sideways moving ones then the Army is being childish?.
It gets very tiring hearing about how top drawer RAF Pilots are but I would seriously question the sweeping statement Crab@ etc made reference the differring standards between the two service standards, it may well be now as he has had inside knowledge of these things over the last few years, but not always so nor will it always be, some of the most dangerous pilots I have ever met wore air force blue, and I mean dangerous in skill level v opinion of skill level which were not remotely compatible. Most Army aviators are sick of hearing how good you guys are, spend a bit of time practising being modest and people might respect some of you more!
Like you I do not hide my identity!
Respect for that at least!
It gets very tiring hearing about how top drawer RAF Pilots are but I would seriously question the sweeping statement Crab@ etc made reference the differring standards between the two service standards, it may well be now as he has had inside knowledge of these things over the last few years, but not always so nor will it always be, some of the most dangerous pilots I have ever met wore air force blue, and I mean dangerous in skill level v opinion of skill level which were not remotely compatible. Most Army aviators are sick of hearing how good you guys are, spend a bit of time practising being modest and people might respect some of you more!
Like you I do not hide my identity!
Respect for that at least!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just wondering if the crabs present are aware of the two busiest SAR Sqns in the UK. 771 and 819. Strangely enough the only two RN SAR Sqns. AND both have done it up to now as a secondary role. You crabs are just playing at it.
Good to see that JHC has got rid of all this pettiness. Three services, together years worth of tradition and minutes worth of tollerance. It really is this 'My Dad's bigger than yours' attitude that's driving me away from Pprune. I love banter, but this aint it. PLEASE play nicely!
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 120
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist
Never worked with 771, have worked with 819 and have a high regard for the team there. Suggest you ask them what they think of their light blue colleagues SAR abilities, you might be surprised. In the mean time why don't you go get some winter, night mountain flying in and then tell us how easy you think that is before you start making childish comments about people" playing at it".
Never worked with 771, have worked with 819 and have a high regard for the team there. Suggest you ask them what they think of their light blue colleagues SAR abilities, you might be surprised. In the mean time why don't you go get some winter, night mountain flying in and then tell us how easy you think that is before you start making childish comments about people" playing at it".
