Leave entitlement ???
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: mage Frais, Rodney
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave entitlement ???
Has anyone else got any gripes (sorry, constructive comments) about how leave and being aircrew on a frontline flying squadron are mutually exclusive.
I think there must have been a clamp down from Strike or somewhere recently to ensure everyone takes their 30 days leave.
I have recently been told that the locally given post Veritas standown (one day per week in theatre-generous, I know) has to be taken for the weekends that I took off so that I have to put more annual days leave in for the rest. Thus making the Sqn's/Station's leave stats look better!!! (There's no problem - everyone is taking their annual leave in the eyes of the airships).
I suppose it's one way of using your entitlement as there's not much hope of using it throughout the year when I want to.
I heard that one of the sqns at Waddo have been clamping down on leave aswell, all in the name of stats.
I think there must have been a clamp down from Strike or somewhere recently to ensure everyone takes their 30 days leave.
I have recently been told that the locally given post Veritas standown (one day per week in theatre-generous, I know) has to be taken for the weekends that I took off so that I have to put more annual days leave in for the rest. Thus making the Sqn's/Station's leave stats look better!!! (There's no problem - everyone is taking their annual leave in the eyes of the airships).
I suppose it's one way of using your entitlement as there's not much hope of using it throughout the year when I want to.
I heard that one of the sqns at Waddo have been clamping down on leave aswell, all in the name of stats.
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: No fixed abode
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jesus H
Don't your Flt Cdrs/Boss have better things to do. Ours are constantly chasing our shadows. We sometimes get a weekend off before being sponged again for 2 - 4 wks in the desert. The record is 4 crews having 18 hrs from call fm Flt Cdr to airborne in a VC10 - this while being on 3 days notice to move! We haven't got a 'snowball's chance in Oman' of getting our leave entitlement this year and everyone knows it. At least our execs don't try and stiff us both ways as most of them have been stiffed to be detcos and operators as well. ACR debriefs are done on the email/phone/flt deck and while we are all meant to be resting at home, we get stiffed to be rent-a-crowd whenever someone visits the station, "oh and by the way, your PME/CCS/BTRs are out of date, there are no trg ac but you go back to theatre next week." Thank you, Sir - try a bigger bat next time - this one doesn't hurt enough!
Frankly, if some-one offered me promotion (unlikely) - I wouldn't touch it with yours!
Don't your Flt Cdrs/Boss have better things to do. Ours are constantly chasing our shadows. We sometimes get a weekend off before being sponged again for 2 - 4 wks in the desert. The record is 4 crews having 18 hrs from call fm Flt Cdr to airborne in a VC10 - this while being on 3 days notice to move! We haven't got a 'snowball's chance in Oman' of getting our leave entitlement this year and everyone knows it. At least our execs don't try and stiff us both ways as most of them have been stiffed to be detcos and operators as well. ACR debriefs are done on the email/phone/flt deck and while we are all meant to be resting at home, we get stiffed to be rent-a-crowd whenever someone visits the station, "oh and by the way, your PME/CCS/BTRs are out of date, there are no trg ac but you go back to theatre next week." Thank you, Sir - try a bigger bat next time - this one doesn't hurt enough!
Frankly, if some-one offered me promotion (unlikely) - I wouldn't touch it with yours!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Southern England
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wish!
I spent 14 weeks on SAIF SAREEA, 3 weeks in the UK, then 5 weeks on ops (over xmas and the new year), 2 weeks in the UK, 7 weeks in Northern America and then it was Easter!
I have 30 days anual leave, plus the 15 automatically carried over, plus another 15 I can apply to have carried over.
When am I expected to take this 12 weeks off? Under my units current tasking level, I will be lucky to get more than 3 weeks off for the rest of the year.
This is not unusual for anyone I work with, so when are we going to be paid for unused leave like many of our civilian counter-parts?
Oh, stop me now, I have just seen a 3 ship of P-1-gs flypast.
MATZ
I have 30 days anual leave, plus the 15 automatically carried over, plus another 15 I can apply to have carried over.
When am I expected to take this 12 weeks off? Under my units current tasking level, I will be lucky to get more than 3 weeks off for the rest of the year.
This is not unusual for anyone I work with, so when are we going to be paid for unused leave like many of our civilian counter-parts?
Oh, stop me now, I have just seen a 3 ship of P-1-gs flypast.
MATZ
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Where the heart belongs
Age: 55
Posts: 413
Likes: 0
Received 4 Likes
on
2 Posts
Over the last two years, I have crried over the maximum of 15 days, I lost 21 days I couldn't carry and only taken 24 days leave. I was on Veritas over christmas and new year, only got the usual post Veritas leave on return to the UK, no christmas grant for me. The Sqn try and program leave into your year, but with the lack of aircrew we have now, you are not always able to take leave. It would be best if the RAF adopted a policy in line with civvy street, where if you have leave left at the end of your leave year, they have to buy it back off you. I don't mind not taking my leave but I wouldn't mind being paid for the 21 days they wouldn't let me take.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Far far away
Age: 53
Posts: 715
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the obvious problem with the current leave system is that is was designed for adminers by adminers. As front line aircrew we don't usually work from 08:30 to 17:00 Mon - Fri but we do spend a substantial amount of our time away. Although we get time off when detached we can't spend it in our gardens/with the wife and kids/at Mum's etc. We are, of course, on duty when down route. We work more hours per week than the average admin sec, who probably thinks that 35 hours a week sounds reasonable.
But we're stuck with the system. So what to do about it? I have 2 suggestions:
1. Apply for your leave. Don't take the word of section leaders/Flt commanders etc that you won't get it. The only feedback the system gets that we're not getting the leave we want is when it is turned down. If you don't apply then the system thinks you simply don't want your leave.
2. After the monthly plan has been published apply for leave for every weekend that you are not scheduled to fly. These are days 'not required for duty' and you are just as entitled to them as the weekday workers. When the late notice tasking comes in your authorised absence will have to be cancelled and, again, the system will have some indication that we might be getting a tad stretched.
But we're stuck with the system. So what to do about it? I have 2 suggestions:
1. Apply for your leave. Don't take the word of section leaders/Flt commanders etc that you won't get it. The only feedback the system gets that we're not getting the leave we want is when it is turned down. If you don't apply then the system thinks you simply don't want your leave.
2. After the monthly plan has been published apply for leave for every weekend that you are not scheduled to fly. These are days 'not required for duty' and you are just as entitled to them as the weekday workers. When the late notice tasking comes in your authorised absence will have to be cancelled and, again, the system will have some indication that we might be getting a tad stretched.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: mage Frais, Rodney
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lesson number one, don't press the return key before you've written something!!.
D-IFF, my sentiments exactly. I'm certainly encouraging everyone to put leave passes in for when they want leave regardless of 'Duty/Reserve Sqn' etc... After all that's what the 'leave not approved' box is for. (Don't know what that will do with the leave 'Stats')
Apparently, you can't put leave in for a weekend because SAMA won't take it (so an insider in the admin world tells me). What I plan on doing is put a leave pass in for either the Fri before or Mon after required weekend, then cancel the extra day. Don't know if will work but worth a try. I take it people who work in a proper shift pattern don't have any problems ???
But it defineately is fast becoming the Royal Admin Force good and proper (But surprisingly enough not all the adminers are adminers - just GDs pushing for promotion maybe!!)
D-IFF, my sentiments exactly. I'm certainly encouraging everyone to put leave passes in for when they want leave regardless of 'Duty/Reserve Sqn' etc... After all that's what the 'leave not approved' box is for. (Don't know what that will do with the leave 'Stats')
Apparently, you can't put leave in for a weekend because SAMA won't take it (so an insider in the admin world tells me). What I plan on doing is put a leave pass in for either the Fri before or Mon after required weekend, then cancel the extra day. Don't know if will work but worth a try. I take it people who work in a proper shift pattern don't have any problems ???
But it defineately is fast becoming the Royal Admin Force good and proper (But surprisingly enough not all the adminers are adminers - just GDs pushing for promotion maybe!!)
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you don't apply for your leave you have no-one to blame, and it makes life easier for the stats chasing cadre.
- The job can do without you
- If it can't you can get a REFUSAL
- Don't make life easy for a weak Flt Cdr/Boss by not applying for it
- If you don't take it it masks the problem
- Maybe there isn't a problem in some areas, just people being precious(see first point)
- NO Stats are worth it
- LIFE IS TOO SHORT
Any Higher paid help online to give the case for stats chasing vs Leave
- The job can do without you
- If it can't you can get a REFUSAL
- Don't make life easy for a weak Flt Cdr/Boss by not applying for it
- If you don't take it it masks the problem
- Maybe there isn't a problem in some areas, just people being precious(see first point)
- NO Stats are worth it
- LIFE IS TOO SHORT
Any Higher paid help online to give the case for stats chasing vs Leave
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Best plan has already been suggested. Check leave book and apply for leave when you know you have no chance of getting it and force a "rejection" If we all did this, all year long, the admin world would probably implode trying to sort out the stats.
Point to ponder......one of my oppo's has just had his leave cancelled for the umpteenth time to go to the "hot and sandy" place. Unfortunately for him he had a paid holiday booked and when he tried to claim from his own insurance they refused to pay up as his cancellation was for service reasons. He then went to the blunt fu@K@rs with his problem but they also refused to help as his leave pass was sat in the leave book and had not yet been submitted.
How many of you, like me , submit leave passes well in advance of your holiday only for it to sit in the leave book till the month before you go?
The moral of this, I think, is to submit your leave pass early and then insist it is sent to handbrake house. This will ensure that when the service f@cks you up the hoop at the last minute and your travel insurance fails to pay up you at least have the satisfaction of knowing some tight fisted bean counting bas@@rd will have to reimburse you..............maybe.
Admin Guru...................don't you fuc@@ng dare!!!!!!!!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Point to ponder......one of my oppo's has just had his leave cancelled for the umpteenth time to go to the "hot and sandy" place. Unfortunately for him he had a paid holiday booked and when he tried to claim from his own insurance they refused to pay up as his cancellation was for service reasons. He then went to the blunt fu@K@rs with his problem but they also refused to help as his leave pass was sat in the leave book and had not yet been submitted.
How many of you, like me , submit leave passes well in advance of your holiday only for it to sit in the leave book till the month before you go?
The moral of this, I think, is to submit your leave pass early and then insist it is sent to handbrake house. This will ensure that when the service f@cks you up the hoop at the last minute and your travel insurance fails to pay up you at least have the satisfaction of knowing some tight fisted bean counting bas@@rd will have to reimburse you..............maybe.
Admin Guru...................don't you fuc@@ng dare!!!!!!!!!
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
I had to cancel a pre-paid flight after leave had been approved - or rather my request had been timetabled, the actual bit of paper hadn't made it from someone's in-tray. Probably because they had also been away somewhere. The reason for the cancellation was 4 days (originally 36 hours) notice to go to the Islas Malvinas to do a non-job for 6 weeks. Despite my boss's best efforts (and a nicer bloke you couldn't hope to have as boss) - he even offered to pay for it from a discretionary fund - the blunt ones fought tooth and nail not to pay anything back. They wouldn't even accept that the on-line booking had been made and demanded a copy of my bank statement - which they didn't get. After a fight of over 12 months they grudgingly paid it back - but minus whatever the insurance premium from NAAFI would have been had I had that cover!
They have now lost any co-operation or flexibility on my part over leave plans. I put leave passes in good and early and will not change them unless it suits me.
Incidentally, a couple of years ago the AFPRB was critical of MoD failing to have a leave 'buy-back' system. But they haven't even mentioned it recently. However, along with the pensions issue I shall be asking about this when the AFBLT comes here soon. I understand that several people who haven't been able to take their leave have had approval to carry forward the extra over the automatic 15 days refused...... Personally I consider that they should have received 150% of a day's pay per diem in compensation.
They have now lost any co-operation or flexibility on my part over leave plans. I put leave passes in good and early and will not change them unless it suits me.
Incidentally, a couple of years ago the AFPRB was critical of MoD failing to have a leave 'buy-back' system. But they haven't even mentioned it recently. However, along with the pensions issue I shall be asking about this when the AFBLT comes here soon. I understand that several people who haven't been able to take their leave have had approval to carry forward the extra over the automatic 15 days refused...... Personally I consider that they should have received 150% of a day's pay per diem in compensation.
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: A small wheel in a large desert
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave Entitlement
I am not Admin Guru! I am hower an Adminer stuck in the Desert who wishes to contribute to your debate in hopefully a constructive manner. First of all, and not just because I am intruding into an Aircrew forum I fully accept that if Admin screw up we deserve a slap. I have been doing this job for a few years and know that our role is to support the operators, hence this reply. The advice given above about making sure your leave app gets to SHQ is spot on if you need to claim for Nugatory Holiday Expenditure which is the name of the scheme that re-imburses you when the MOD requires you to go somewhere at short notice and that a normal insurance policy won't cover you for. The idea is that if the system screws up your hols you shouldn't dip out all ways round because your insurance won't cover the risk. The reason the leave needs to be in is because, unfortunately, and I am afraid its true, some individuals have abused the system. Now in an ideal world we should all be trusted to play the game but because of problems in the past the MOD (SP Pol to be precise) have dictated that a pre-cursor for payment is that the leave must have been approved, hence the need to get your App in to SHQ. Top tips for getting approval for payments are a copy of the leave pass, a copy of the cancellation or letter from the boss explaining why you had to go, a copy of your insurance and a letter from the Insurance saying they won't pay. This should mean that the MOD covers the bill if the deployment is a short-notice deployment to an operational area that insurance won't normally cover. For every day cover may I suggest that you consider taking out one of the policies alluded to above by NAAFI etc who do make a point of covering short notice military cancellations that are not payable under NHE - its one of their selling points. There are several around and most are advertised periodically in the RAF news. The combination of one of these policies in tandem with NHE should mean you are never out of pocket for cancelled holidays. With regard to leave apps and weekends the reason SAMA won't take the weekend days is because leave now is only counted for Mon to Fri which I know is b**l*cks because you work weekends but for the majority of the Service that is the normal working week and thats the system. I can't defend it I'm just explaining it. The reason for the Stats chase is political because I guess the system wants it all ways round, you everywhere and all leave taken, therefore happy punters. Unless you get the apps endorsed denied for service reasons people will never work out that there is a big problem with over stretch - therefore get the apps in to SHQ once again. Hope this helps, standing by to be pilloried! P.s. I inherited the log In name from a predecessor who told me all about the site so apologies to him for using his Log in.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 84
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desert Crash,
"Hope this helps, standing by to be pilloried! "
No pilloring here mate! If only more adminers could adopt your approach and try to explain/help with gripes that we ALL suffer from, there would be a lot less to moan about on these boards.
However, I'm sure Admin Guru would have different thoughts!
"Hope this helps, standing by to be pilloried! "
No pilloring here mate! If only more adminers could adopt your approach and try to explain/help with gripes that we ALL suffer from, there would be a lot less to moan about on these boards.
However, I'm sure Admin Guru would have different thoughts!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless a response to the contrary inbound, I suspect the consensus is to coldly/calmly add up your leave and APPLY for what you want. Use the REJECTIONS to carry over what you are entitled to. Put the 'ball in the courts' of the Flt Cdrs and Bosses to sign their names to the 'NOT APPROVED'.
The powers that be will see that truer facts will be presented and maybe they will see that Bosses are refusing leave, neglecting the morale aspects of leadership, and concentrating on chasing stats that are easier to hide behind than making strong and courageous decisions.
The powers that be will see that truer facts will be presented and maybe they will see that Bosses are refusing leave, neglecting the morale aspects of leadership, and concentrating on chasing stats that are easier to hide behind than making strong and courageous decisions.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F4 EF5 I think you've got it spot on. Safeguards are put in the system to highlight problems such as lost leave, unfortunately aircrew generally are poor at the blunt stuff and so the problem doesn't get highlighted.
If everyone applies for all their leave that they are entitled, taking note of any leave entitlements published in SROs etc, then the problem cannot be swept away.
Any boss and Flt Cdr worth his salt will sign leave passes as rejected when he has to and fully support those who are highlighting lost leave problems.
DC thanks for the info. Useful to know how to play the system - objective comment will not get a hammering here from me.
GB
If everyone applies for all their leave that they are entitled, taking note of any leave entitlements published in SROs etc, then the problem cannot be swept away.
Any boss and Flt Cdr worth his salt will sign leave passes as rejected when he has to and fully support those who are highlighting lost leave problems.
DC thanks for the info. Useful to know how to play the system - objective comment will not get a hammering here from me.
GB
Join Date: Jul 2000
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do stop dripping all of you; it is very boring. If you need more leave you should be a crab in NI. They only seem to work a few days a month at the best of times. Second thoughts; don't bother. They drip contstantly too.
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Wiltshire
Posts: 1,360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desert Crash you are truely one in a million. If only more of your counter parts were able to offer such candid and helpful advice.
The consensus here is obvious and I for one will be in my bosses office on monday morning "badgering" for a change to our current leave pass policy. Hopefully if we all adopt the same attitude and force more "leave rejected" passes into the system things can only improve. DC thanks again.
INB.....why is it that just when common sense seems to be prevailing someone who is obviously not sufficiently intelligent enough to see where the greener pastures are comes along and offers some trite inter service bitching. Whilst us "crabs" are attempting to address a serious shortcoming I suggest you sod off and do what the other two services do best.........live in and get treated like sh@t.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
The consensus here is obvious and I for one will be in my bosses office on monday morning "badgering" for a change to our current leave pass policy. Hopefully if we all adopt the same attitude and force more "leave rejected" passes into the system things can only improve. DC thanks again.
INB.....why is it that just when common sense seems to be prevailing someone who is obviously not sufficiently intelligent enough to see where the greener pastures are comes along and offers some trite inter service bitching. Whilst us "crabs" are attempting to address a serious shortcoming I suggest you sod off and do what the other two services do best.........live in and get treated like sh@t.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Mushroom Farm
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Desert,
You are the man!! at last a scribbly who knows whats what! well done
I think I'm in the same desert as you are at the momement, however....
The thing is, how many rejections/cancellations does it take before your dear colleagues at hand brake mansions take any note of all this??
In the past 9 months, I have had more leave either cancelled or rejected than I have been able to take
Any ideas??
Keep up posting sensible blunty comments. You won't get any pilloring here.
Admin Guru, youv'e been surprisingly quiet, whats up????
I N Yep, you are an arse
You are the man!! at last a scribbly who knows whats what! well done
I think I'm in the same desert as you are at the momement, however....The thing is, how many rejections/cancellations does it take before your dear colleagues at hand brake mansions take any note of all this??
In the past 9 months, I have had more leave either cancelled or rejected than I have been able to take
Any ideas??Keep up posting sensible blunty comments. You won't get any pilloring here.
Admin Guru, youv'e been surprisingly quiet, whats up????
I N Yep, you are an arse
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: A small wheel in a large desert
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Leave Entitlement
Baz,
The problem we have in Hand Breake Mansion and in all Sqns at Stns is that whether we like it or not we are all governed by Management Plans which rely on the stats as objective data to support management objectives for example CCS, fitness test passes et al. If we show that 98% of people took the fitness test and his objective was for 90% of people to pass it then the Staish can say that he is ensuring his people are fit and met his target you get the jist? So going back to leave we can accurately report how much leave is being rejected, as long as the leave passes get to us. The problem we ALL have is bosses who invariably will try and persuade you to change your dates rather than sign up a rejected leave pass. The issue here is that we are all to "can do" orientated and talking to the aircrew here, you are mercilessly tasked until you stay stop! The issue I think is at Sqn level in the first instance and getting the Sqn boss to pass the stats at Stn Execs. He/she can then point out that in these busy times we can't have it all ways round, yes you will meet the task but leave stats will go through the floor! the Staish gets to choose! Glad to have helped previously, just wary of the ***** Admin Guru types and didn't want to be tarred with the same brush! I will continue to monitor for other Admin issues and will help if I can.
The problem we have in Hand Breake Mansion and in all Sqns at Stns is that whether we like it or not we are all governed by Management Plans which rely on the stats as objective data to support management objectives for example CCS, fitness test passes et al. If we show that 98% of people took the fitness test and his objective was for 90% of people to pass it then the Staish can say that he is ensuring his people are fit and met his target you get the jist? So going back to leave we can accurately report how much leave is being rejected, as long as the leave passes get to us. The problem we ALL have is bosses who invariably will try and persuade you to change your dates rather than sign up a rejected leave pass. The issue here is that we are all to "can do" orientated and talking to the aircrew here, you are mercilessly tasked until you stay stop! The issue I think is at Sqn level in the first instance and getting the Sqn boss to pass the stats at Stn Execs. He/she can then point out that in these busy times we can't have it all ways round, yes you will meet the task but leave stats will go through the floor! the Staish gets to choose! Glad to have helped previously, just wary of the ***** Admin Guru types and didn't want to be tarred with the same brush! I will continue to monitor for other Admin issues and will help if I can.
Wouldn't it be rather more appropriate if a Stn Cdr's effectiveness was assessed using rather more relevant criteria? What point is there in saying "Gp Capt X runs a very effective station - no-one carried over more than 15 days leave and N% of the stn passed their RAFFT" when M% of the ac can't be generated, or are delayed or unserviceable for other reasons? Which means that unless Gp Capt X is jumping up and down and kicking the ar$e of the IPTs to get his stn's whole raison d'etre up to a level of operational effectiveness which we actually need, then he/she's not actually offering much value to the Royal AIR (not Admin) Force!
Judging 'management efficiency' by CCS, RAFFT and other such minor distractions indeed! What utter ar$e - no wonder so many people are getting so pi$$ed off and pulling the black-and-yellow! Bring back the days when Stn Cdrs were judged by their ability to achieve 1s and 2s in Tacevals, not whether they had achieved 'IiP' accreditations, met puffed-up 'management key performance indicator' targets or other such totally irrelevant bolleaux!
Incidentally, these comments are general in nature and are NOT aimed at any station in particular.
Judging 'management efficiency' by CCS, RAFFT and other such minor distractions indeed! What utter ar$e - no wonder so many people are getting so pi$$ed off and pulling the black-and-yellow! Bring back the days when Stn Cdrs were judged by their ability to achieve 1s and 2s in Tacevals, not whether they had achieved 'IiP' accreditations, met puffed-up 'management key performance indicator' targets or other such totally irrelevant bolleaux!
Incidentally, these comments are general in nature and are NOT aimed at any station in particular.
Last edited by BEagle; 11th May 2002 at 08:00.