Our Boys Behaving Badly
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Originally Posted by west Coast
Glojo
Was this case covered by an existing status of forces (or whatever the current term is) agreement or was the service member spirited out of the country before the local justice system could address the situation? A SOFA requires agreement of the host country to allow removal of the service member, it's not a one way street.
Was this case covered by an existing status of forces (or whatever the current term is) agreement or was the service member spirited out of the country before the local justice system could address the situation? A SOFA requires agreement of the host country to allow removal of the service member, it's not a one way street.
That is all the detail I have, this person was then flown home and has never been tried in a UK court for that offence. Hopefully you will understand my feelings of frustration over this issue.
Originally Posted by Green Knight121
So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?
And if she decides to have a little affair with anyone she isn't married to while in Saudi, you two are fine with her being arrested, tried, and executed for adultery?
Really?
And if she decides to have a little affair with anyone she isn't married to while in Saudi, you two are fine with her being arrested, tried, and executed for adultery?
Really?
When serving abroad we must surely both respect and obey the laws of the land?
Last edited by glojo; 11th Sep 2013 at 09:46.
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Yep - and issued with an abaya if they were going "down town".
So you two are perfectly fine with a British servicewoman who drives a UK military vehicle in Saudi Arabia being arrested, tired, and imprisoned for violating the Saudi law banning women from driving?
I seem to remember that in order to leave Al Kharj (for instance) that we had to pass through at least three checkpoints. I'm sure one of those at least would be able to spot a woman driving a military vehicle!
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THS and lj101,
I was certain we had systems like you describe in place for such situations, it's been a couple of years since my last visit to that region.
Glojo, re the last comment of your post #161 - precisely my own thoughts. We can hardly ask those who visit the United Kingdom to abide by our laws if we refuse to do the same in theirs.
I was certain we had systems like you describe in place for such situations, it's been a couple of years since my last visit to that region.
Glojo, re the last comment of your post #161 - precisely my own thoughts. We can hardly ask those who visit the United Kingdom to abide by our laws if we refuse to do the same in theirs.
Yep - and issued with an abaya if going "down town".
There was a story doing the rounds in 1990 before GW1 kicked off in earnest. Allegedly some US forces female was forced to a halt by the 'religious police'. She was wearing trousers and driving a 6x6. But as the pair of Saudis walked towards her vehicle, she loosed off a burst from an M-16 over their heads. At which, doubtless after a few 'allahu akbars', they wisely turned tail and bravely ran away.
Nothing ever said - because what Saudi 'religous policeman' would report having been seen off by a white woman driver, wearing trousers, who'd opened fire on them.
If it was true, then well done that girl!
Mind you, there are some who I'm not sure were ever safe at the wheel in Incirlik....
Further to my opinion regarding justice in the country where the crime is committed, here are two further thoughts.
First, it is grounds for extradition, widely accepted, but often hotly contested.
Second, how could any country accept the repatriation of the accused to a country where the alleged crime isn't a crime. Let me offer a slightly hypothetical example. Mr X has sex with a girl that is under-age in her country. Return Mr X to his home country for trial and we find that he has committed no crime. Could he be tried in his own country for something that his legal system doesn't prohibit?
OK, yes, it sounds a bit unjust that a British girl in Saudi could be prosecuted for adultery under circumstances where the law does not apply in the UK, but why should visitors to any country be allowed to claim immunity to another country's law? When ladies are caught trying to smuggle cocaine in South America, they know the risk, the Embassy has no power to spring them from jail.
First, it is grounds for extradition, widely accepted, but often hotly contested.
Second, how could any country accept the repatriation of the accused to a country where the alleged crime isn't a crime. Let me offer a slightly hypothetical example. Mr X has sex with a girl that is under-age in her country. Return Mr X to his home country for trial and we find that he has committed no crime. Could he be tried in his own country for something that his legal system doesn't prohibit?
OK, yes, it sounds a bit unjust that a British girl in Saudi could be prosecuted for adultery under circumstances where the law does not apply in the UK, but why should visitors to any country be allowed to claim immunity to another country's law? When ladies are caught trying to smuggle cocaine in South America, they know the risk, the Embassy has no power to spring them from jail.
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Some folks are saying no further disciplinary action can be taken against these squaddies when they return to the UK??
Has military law changed that much? In the Navy we had that catch all charge of conduct prejudicial to good order and Naval discipline and as far as I am aware that just about encompassed anything and everything.
Has military law changed that much? In the Navy we had that catch all charge of conduct prejudicial to good order and Naval discipline and as far as I am aware that just about encompassed anything and everything.
If found guilty by the US court, they could be subject to service administrative action, which is a service disciplinary procedure separate from the service criminal justice system. Administrative action can range from an interview with the boss to discharge from the service.
Last edited by Broadsword***; 11th Sep 2013 at 21:10.
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I doubt it. There is no such strict dress code for men in such places
Your knee caps have to be covered while standing up straight.
I wonder what would happen if a Scot were to appear in public in Saudi Arabia in full shortbread-tin kit, complete with kilt.....
How rude. You write one hire car off.....
Mind you, a brand new Fiat Croma was well and truly 'Buffed' in Palermo by one crew - a rear tyre was faulty and they spun into a skip, coming off second best. A few bruises, but the Ops Sgt travelling with them suffered a broken tooth...
The squadron record for hire car-to-police incident was a JEngO in San Diego. Less than 30 sec after driving off in his hire car he was pulled over for a traffic violation!
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Originally Posted by BEagle:8044226
I wonder what would happen if a Scot were to appear in public in Saudi Arabia in full shortbread-tin kit, complete with kilt.....
Having drifted towards dress and behaviour in the more outwardly observant Islamic countries, I'd say that we should comply with the norms which they expect from non-Muslim visitors.
For instance, even in relatively liberal Bahrain it is not a good idea for anyone, esp females, to walk out wearing a sleeveless top; even a little T-shirt type sleeve makes all the difference. Smoking in public during Ramadan, even in your car, can get you stopped. I've known the Hash House Harriers to attract disapproval, sometimes physical, when running through isolated villages.
We should remember that misbehaviour by foreigners is used by the enemies of a friendly regime to beat the onside Sheikh or Emir.
Yes, I know that, following the construction of the causeway, Thursday night signalled the arrival of a shedload of Saudis intent upon, ahem, partying in Manama. Just a matter of knowing the rules and being discreet; e.g. humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour
For instance, even in relatively liberal Bahrain it is not a good idea for anyone, esp females, to walk out wearing a sleeveless top; even a little T-shirt type sleeve makes all the difference. Smoking in public during Ramadan, even in your car, can get you stopped. I've known the Hash House Harriers to attract disapproval, sometimes physical, when running through isolated villages.
We should remember that misbehaviour by foreigners is used by the enemies of a friendly regime to beat the onside Sheikh or Emir.
Yes, I know that, following the construction of the causeway, Thursday night signalled the arrival of a shedload of Saudis intent upon, ahem, partying in Manama. Just a matter of knowing the rules and being discreet; e.g. humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour
Since there is no statute of limitations in this country, why do the authorities not request the extradition of said US serviceman even after all this time.After all we have a bilateral treaty with the USA to cover these very eventualities.
While they may have some justification in beating the guy, when you are on overseas detachment you have to be the better guy and avoid conflict.
They didn't and will answer for the consequences.
They didn't and will answer for the consequences.
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Quote:
humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour
How unreasonable!
humping yer bird on a public beach is probably a good example of indiscreet behaviour
How unreasonable!
The one I thought was wrong in the 70's and 80's was a servicemen arrested in RAFG drink driving may have a disqualification on his BFG licence, and I knew an Armourer done twice, but as far as the UK when tour Ex he was squeaky clean as it neither showed on his UK licence or his insurance.
Gentleman Aviator
The one I thought was wrong in the 70's and 80's was a servicemen arrested in RAFG drink driving may have a disqualification on his BFG licence, and I knew an Armourer done twice, but as far as the UK when tour Ex he was squeaky clean as it neither showed on his UK licence or his insurance.
Not sure how much the insureres knew (or cared!)