Retention
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If I may slightly misquote a more famous speech:
The exchequer entered this ministry under the rather childish delusion that they were going to cut everything and capability loss was not going to noticed. At various pay rounds, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naïve theory into operation. They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
The exchequer entered this ministry under the rather childish delusion that they were going to cut everything and capability loss was not going to noticed. At various pay rounds, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naïve theory into operation. They sowed the wind and now they are going to reap the whirlwind.
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This is a really interesting problem.
I'm a lifer, so really I will never step out of the gate without my ID but the day is coming where a lot of experience does and the training pipelineand breadth of new generation experience falls short of filling those gaps.
FRIs need to be given out now to retain people before the airline exodus.
The problem with FRIs from a finance point of view is that it costs a lot of money and, post FRI, you can never have any concrete proof that the people that have stayed have done so because of the FRI.
I think its time the RAF looked at some lower cost preemptive options rather than the costly FRI Hail Marys.
How about transitioning people to PA spine on offer and not making them wait to their 38 point. Wouldn't cost much and people would be progressing in pay and benefits. That would keep some people.
Perhaps also a way to give people their current gratuity as an advance with a tied in RoS. How many people do you know have left because the gratuity and pension make it financially stupid to stay.
Just some thoughts
Wides
I'm a lifer, so really I will never step out of the gate without my ID but the day is coming where a lot of experience does and the training pipelineand breadth of new generation experience falls short of filling those gaps.
FRIs need to be given out now to retain people before the airline exodus.
The problem with FRIs from a finance point of view is that it costs a lot of money and, post FRI, you can never have any concrete proof that the people that have stayed have done so because of the FRI.
I think its time the RAF looked at some lower cost preemptive options rather than the costly FRI Hail Marys.
How about transitioning people to PA spine on offer and not making them wait to their 38 point. Wouldn't cost much and people would be progressing in pay and benefits. That would keep some people.
Perhaps also a way to give people their current gratuity as an advance with a tied in RoS. How many people do you know have left because the gratuity and pension make it financially stupid to stay.
Just some thoughts
Wides
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Fri will be pointless. On any measure, anything less than 150k net and it still makes sense to leave.
Even more so now the young guys have had their pensions will and truly Rodgered.
Offering 80k gross will just nark people off more.
Even more so now the young guys have had their pensions will and truly Rodgered.
Offering 80k gross will just nark people off more.
Champagne anyone...?
It is quite interesting from the outside looking in now. I left nearly 2 years ago now but am still involved, peripherally, as a reservist on the Herc (although I don't do as much as I should!!). I too was a lifer (or so I thought) and could never conceive of leaving the warm embrace of the RAF and entering the dull world of civil aviation. Having now done so however, part of me wishes I'd done it sooner...
Anyway, whenever I dust off the uniform and go back in I am consistently amazed/dismayed by the crushingly low levels of morale. People still seem to be keen and generally want to crack on and do the job but just seem to be being crushed by trivia, bureaucracy, change for change sake, "initiatives", huge uncertainty about the future and a lack of direction. I am constantly quizzed on the state of the airline market, what its like in the outside world, advice on licences etc etc. Now, maybe it's easier to spot the dissatisfaction now I'm not part of it but even so I do find it a rather disappointing state of affairs.
As I'm pretty much an outsider now I can't say what the cure is but I honestly don't believe that FRIs are the great panacea. FRIs in the current climate are simply an anaesthetic to temporarily take away the pain of the huge festering wound that is the current state of much of the RAF. The anaesthetic is nice thank you but the wound is still there and that pain relief can wear off quite quickly.
Rather than just chaff money at the problem the future of the RAF would be better served by stripping away the insufferable levels of niff naff and trivia that people are drowning under. I am constantly amazed by how my current employer, for whom safety, efficiency and profit are the absolute bottom line, can initiate change and development at the drop of a hat. If something is going to save us money and increase efficiency, it happens. The operational side (i.e. non-commercial side) of our HQ has a fraction of the people that it takes "run" Brize and yet it handles more flights (by a factor of 20) in a day than Brize does in a week. I've used this line many many times before (apologies) but it is so appropriate:
"I used to work for the military where we had 40 meetings a day and put 1 aircraft airborne a week. I now work for a company that puts 40 aircraft airborne a day and has one meeting a week."
Stop drowning your people in crap, strip away the unintelligible levels of bureaucracy that you have allowed to develop, make it so people actually want to go into work, just acknowledge that things are sub-par at the moment but at least try and offer a brighter future. Your people aren't stupid. Stop looking at ways to force them to stay and instead concentrate on making them want to stay in.
Anyway, whenever I dust off the uniform and go back in I am consistently amazed/dismayed by the crushingly low levels of morale. People still seem to be keen and generally want to crack on and do the job but just seem to be being crushed by trivia, bureaucracy, change for change sake, "initiatives", huge uncertainty about the future and a lack of direction. I am constantly quizzed on the state of the airline market, what its like in the outside world, advice on licences etc etc. Now, maybe it's easier to spot the dissatisfaction now I'm not part of it but even so I do find it a rather disappointing state of affairs.
As I'm pretty much an outsider now I can't say what the cure is but I honestly don't believe that FRIs are the great panacea. FRIs in the current climate are simply an anaesthetic to temporarily take away the pain of the huge festering wound that is the current state of much of the RAF. The anaesthetic is nice thank you but the wound is still there and that pain relief can wear off quite quickly.
Rather than just chaff money at the problem the future of the RAF would be better served by stripping away the insufferable levels of niff naff and trivia that people are drowning under. I am constantly amazed by how my current employer, for whom safety, efficiency and profit are the absolute bottom line, can initiate change and development at the drop of a hat. If something is going to save us money and increase efficiency, it happens. The operational side (i.e. non-commercial side) of our HQ has a fraction of the people that it takes "run" Brize and yet it handles more flights (by a factor of 20) in a day than Brize does in a week. I've used this line many many times before (apologies) but it is so appropriate:
"I used to work for the military where we had 40 meetings a day and put 1 aircraft airborne a week. I now work for a company that puts 40 aircraft airborne a day and has one meeting a week."
Stop drowning your people in crap, strip away the unintelligible levels of bureaucracy that you have allowed to develop, make it so people actually want to go into work, just acknowledge that things are sub-par at the moment but at least try and offer a brighter future. Your people aren't stupid. Stop looking at ways to force them to stay and instead concentrate on making them want to stay in.
StopStart
Yep, that very much sums up the current situation.
and
Absolutely agree but I think it's too late. Perhaps a better option may be to re-arrange how we do business as aircrew in the RAF. Forget all the 38/16 crap and work on 9 years return of service as a planning figure. Train people, give them 6-7 years on a front-line aircraft without a break and expect them to leave at the end of it. Those that enjoy it and are good can chase the career or seek extensions. Those that go will be at the top of the flying tree and probably highly employable outside.
Of course the training system would have to be beefed up to cope with the much higher throughput of numbers but overall, it should be much more manageable and less subject to the boom and bust that commercial opportunites can present. You would probably have a better balance of experience on each sqn too.
crushed by trivia, bureaucracy, change for change sake, "initiatives", huge uncertainty about the future and a lack of direction
and
Stop looking at ways to force them to stay and instead concentrate on making them want to stay in.
Of course the training system would have to be beefed up to cope with the much higher throughput of numbers but overall, it should be much more manageable and less subject to the boom and bust that commercial opportunites can present. You would probably have a better balance of experience on each sqn too.
The trouble is that it's an ever-decreasing circle - initially, a few walk leaving those remaining to pick up the slack. Eventually they get miffed and walk leaving even fewer working much harder, who, of course get miffed or burnt out fairly quickly and leave or get signed off.
VinRouge,
I've posted it before, but people need to remember that accepting a net £80k FRI right now will only plug the gap in your AFPS75 vs AFPS15 pension arrangements at 38/16. I'm sure that leaving at 38 would leave me short by around £100k compared to if my AFPS75 pension was honoured completely.
So if they want to make a serious difference to people, they'd need to be looking at well over £150k net, otherwise you're gaining nothing, just returning to the ToS you were on before AFPS15.
Fri will be pointless. On any measure, anything less than 150k net and it still makes sense to leave.
Even more so now the young guys have had their pensions will and truly Rodgered.
Offering 80k gross will just nark people off more.
Even more so now the young guys have had their pensions will and truly Rodgered.
Offering 80k gross will just nark people off more.
So if they want to make a serious difference to people, they'd need to be looking at well over £150k net, otherwise you're gaining nothing, just returning to the ToS you were on before AFPS15.
Join Date: Feb 2007
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Hmmm, seems to be that from you bus drivers with mucho denarii that you are hitting the "this place sucks nards" point.
Any Erks and hammer wielders care to stick your tuppence worth in?
And by that I mean what used to be TG1 and 2 - the prime aicraft generators
coz, the perspective form the outside is you are all stampeding for the gate - the button on thy magic JPA (or whatever its called today) is worn out thru overuse and you are all mightily hacked off.
Outside is hard work at the moment - salaries are ****e, but there are lots of oppertunities, if you don't fancy the dicking around and endless routines to the sandpit then try your hand.
skillsets are tranferrable - the endless wiwol stories not so, unless you work for me and will provide the coffee while swinging the lamp and talking bollox....
if you think you are reaching a F**K this point do so, don't look back.
you will miss the banter unless you end up working with other ex mil who can take a joke.
would I go back - nope.
Any Erks and hammer wielders care to stick your tuppence worth in?
And by that I mean what used to be TG1 and 2 - the prime aicraft generators
coz, the perspective form the outside is you are all stampeding for the gate - the button on thy magic JPA (or whatever its called today) is worn out thru overuse and you are all mightily hacked off.
Outside is hard work at the moment - salaries are ****e, but there are lots of oppertunities, if you don't fancy the dicking around and endless routines to the sandpit then try your hand.
skillsets are tranferrable - the endless wiwol stories not so, unless you work for me and will provide the coffee while swinging the lamp and talking bollox....
if you think you are reaching a F**K this point do so, don't look back.
you will miss the banter unless you end up working with other ex mil who can take a joke.
would I go back - nope.
Would I go back?
To the RAF of 1973? Yes!
To the RAF of 1983? Yes!
To the RAF of 1993? Perhaps... But probably not.
To the RAF of 2003? Definitely not.
To the RAF of today? Definitely not.
To the RAF of 1973? Yes!
To the RAF of 1983? Yes!
To the RAF of 1993? Perhaps... But probably not.
To the RAF of 2003? Definitely not.
To the RAF of today? Definitely not.
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The vexed question of FRI is really what does it buy the taxpayer? The problem that the Treasury has with these schemes is that
(i) You end up paying lots of cash to people who were going to stay anyway (dead weight costs)
(ii) Unless you have a proactive plan to fix the problem which has led to the need to use a FRI, then actually all it does is buy you (a relatively short amount of) time at which point you have to do it all again.
Sound familiar?
S41
(i) You end up paying lots of cash to people who were going to stay anyway (dead weight costs)
(ii) Unless you have a proactive plan to fix the problem which has led to the need to use a FRI, then actually all it does is buy you (a relatively short amount of) time at which point you have to do it all again.
Sound familiar?
S41
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I too left the Herc force about one year ago, 23 years of service and enjoyed nearly all of it. Great people, job, places visited and what a laugh! Left on a high after a good final tour.
It's good to discuss the FRI question. I was selected for the lower stage 1 FRI back in 2003 (get this) while I was still in pilot training...
How does that make sense! There was no way I was going to walk back then.
Stoppers is right, it is the structure and management that needs to adapt and change.
An old crusty Sqn Ldr ALM (30 Sqn) once told me why he decided to leave early before his 55 pt, he said "it's like being nibbled to death by ducks".
I chose to leave at a time when it suited me, it was a difficult decision, manning only hindered me and the transition to a job outside takes hard work and persistence but it can be very rewarding. Most guys and gals serving would knock the socks off your average civvie. Think about it, if it suits; then go for it and you have very good chances of a successful career outside.
It's good to discuss the FRI question. I was selected for the lower stage 1 FRI back in 2003 (get this) while I was still in pilot training...
How does that make sense! There was no way I was going to walk back then.
Stoppers is right, it is the structure and management that needs to adapt and change.
An old crusty Sqn Ldr ALM (30 Sqn) once told me why he decided to leave early before his 55 pt, he said "it's like being nibbled to death by ducks".
I chose to leave at a time when it suited me, it was a difficult decision, manning only hindered me and the transition to a job outside takes hard work and persistence but it can be very rewarding. Most guys and gals serving would knock the socks off your average civvie. Think about it, if it suits; then go for it and you have very good chances of a successful career outside.
Beags
I reckon the rot really set in post Strategic Defence Review (SDR) '97, that would chime with your thoughts.
The rot and 'capability holidays' continued after this and the force now looks nothing like this for 2015!
LJ
Would I go back?
To the RAF of 1973? Yes!
To the RAF of 1983? Yes!
To the RAF of 1993? Perhaps... But probably not.
To the RAF of 2003? Definitely not.
To the RAF of today? Definitely not.
To the RAF of 1973? Yes!
To the RAF of 1983? Yes!
To the RAF of 1993? Perhaps... But probably not.
To the RAF of 2003? Definitely not.
To the RAF of today? Definitely not.
In hardware and personnel terms, the planned configuration of Britain's forces to 2015 may be summarised as follows (pre SDR figures/plans in brackets):
Trident submarines 4 (4);
Trident missiles 58 (65);
Maximum nuclear warheads per Trident submarine 48 (96);
attack submarines 10 (12);
aircraft carriers 2 very large (3 smaller);
destroyers/frigates 32 (35);
roll-on roll-off container ships 6 (2);
minesweepers 22 (25);
offensive air support 154 (177);
C-17 heavy airlift planes 4 extra
tank regiments 6 larger (8);
Regular Army 112,300 (108,000)
Territorial Army 40,000 (56,000)
Air Defence Sqns 5+OCU (6+OCU)
In addition, the government pledges to go ahead with the controversial order for 232 Eurofighter aircraft, and will shortly be bringing into service a fleet of new Apache helicopters, 'smart' weapons and improved intelligence and reconnaissance equipment. Most importantly, a four-star 'Chief of Defence Logistics' is appointed to manage logistics across all three services. It was also decided to form a 400-personnel joint army/air nuclear, chemical and biological reconnaissance regiment, based with the Royal Armoured Corps.
Trident submarines 4 (4);
Trident missiles 58 (65);
Maximum nuclear warheads per Trident submarine 48 (96);
attack submarines 10 (12);
aircraft carriers 2 very large (3 smaller);
destroyers/frigates 32 (35);
roll-on roll-off container ships 6 (2);
minesweepers 22 (25);
offensive air support 154 (177);
C-17 heavy airlift planes 4 extra
tank regiments 6 larger (8);
Regular Army 112,300 (108,000)
Territorial Army 40,000 (56,000)
Air Defence Sqns 5+OCU (6+OCU)
In addition, the government pledges to go ahead with the controversial order for 232 Eurofighter aircraft, and will shortly be bringing into service a fleet of new Apache helicopters, 'smart' weapons and improved intelligence and reconnaissance equipment. Most importantly, a four-star 'Chief of Defence Logistics' is appointed to manage logistics across all three services. It was also decided to form a 400-personnel joint army/air nuclear, chemical and biological reconnaissance regiment, based with the Royal Armoured Corps.
LJ
Last edited by Lima Juliet; 25th Oct 2013 at 19:49.
The good news is that a certain very senior politician, at a speech at a recent charity dinner, stated that all we need to do is make the military much more like civilian businesses and make everyone in the military more productive! One wonders how? Does he mean we all need to drop more bombs or shoot more people?
I know we often say that we couldn't 'do another Falklands' , but frankly, I don't think we could even 'do another Libya' these days. Whilst the high paid help are sitting in their ivory towers, full of self congratulation at slashing capability - let's not beat around the bush, redundancy = reduced capability - much of our recent 'success' as it is has come from our ability to surge when required. And we have been able to surge because a degree of 'spare' capacity has existed. We no longer have that 'spare' capacity, frankly as an institution, I often get the feeling that we are now struggling to get the basics done on a daily basis.
And it's only going to get worse. Just what is the irreducible minimum to guarantee a safe and effective air capability? And when did we pass that point? People are tired. People are pissed off. We just want it all to stop, to allow us time to recover and regenerate from 12 continuous years on active operations without interference from politicians chasing votes, VSOs chasing knighthoods and Civil Servants chasing paperwork. I don't think it's too dramatic to suggest that as an Air Force, it feels rather like the state of the Puma Force in 2006-8 but on a larger scale. And we all know how that one ended.
Last edited by Melchett01; 25th Oct 2013 at 23:14.
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Sadly almost no amount of money the RAF could lay its hands on would make a difference. The huge number of tax free jobs opening up in 2014 for, albeit, a select few aircrew with QFI ticks means that any £150k - £300k FRI would barely touch the sides. The guys a gals will be making that sort of cash every 18-36 months. The only thing that would keep people is a return to the level of pride we all once felt in being part of this organisation. Sadly all I hear now from my fellow pilots is how ashamed they are to be part of it all. The crewroom chat is only about opportunities outside and 95% of the guys on the Sqn will be able to tell you to the exact day when their RoS is up and which day they need to exercise their option. Someone else further up has already mentioned this but my genuine best guess is that 30-40% of my Sqn will not be getting posted out but will be leaving by their own choice.
To those thinking of staying in - good luck but take the blinkers off and perhaps set you sights a little higher.
To those thinking of staying in - good luck but take the blinkers off and perhaps set you sights a little higher.
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Making it harder for people to leave, in no way encourages them to stay....a point that is all too often lost on manning.
Im not sure there is an 'exodus' on the way, but the problem is that because of the continuous stream of cuts and redundancies etc over the last few years, we are now so small in some areas that if even a few people leave it will become a major problem for the Service.
Im not sure there is an 'exodus' on the way, but the problem is that because of the continuous stream of cuts and redundancies etc over the last few years, we are now so small in some areas that if even a few people leave it will become a major problem for the Service.
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For those that said a FRI will not work. Your are
A). Mad
B). Already left the raf with a nice pension.
If you were to offer us a huge pile of cash, I'm sure we would serve the minimum return of service to qualify for the payment. You do something for me and if the price is right, I'll do something for you.
As for not being able to afford it. We are not broke when we are giving away money to the Royal Bank of Scotland and when corporations like Starbucks and Amazon don't pay tax. You, sat at home reading this, pay more tax than a lot of multi billion £ corporations.
A). Mad
B). Already left the raf with a nice pension.
If you were to offer us a huge pile of cash, I'm sure we would serve the minimum return of service to qualify for the payment. You do something for me and if the price is right, I'll do something for you.
As for not being able to afford it. We are not broke when we are giving away money to the Royal Bank of Scotland and when corporations like Starbucks and Amazon don't pay tax. You, sat at home reading this, pay more tax than a lot of multi billion £ corporations.
I don't have to water the grass. I still like it here, and I have enormous pride in serving. Call me anal...whatever. I appreciate its not like it was 30 years ago, but I still love flying and doing my job. Perhaps I shouldnt be on this forum.