Sharky Watch LIVE
Join Date: Apr 1999
Location: Manchester, UK
Posts: 1,958
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sharky seems be allowed to pass on his opinion, almost always derogatory to the RAF, irrespective of whether its total rot, without any form of challenge. For instance he wrote an entirely nonsensical piece about how the Libyan air strikes would have been much cheaper from a carrier. Why do you let him do this without contradiction?
Last edited by ShotOne; 20th Jul 2013 at 05:45.
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When you say 'without contradiction' do you perchance mean that every time he puts pen to e-paper every keyboard in crab-dom lights up with indignation?
I am personally disappointed by the way this passionate advocate of maritime aviation has essentially self-fragged to the point of being a pantomime villain - in the main because I think that in amongst bluster and inaccuracies are truths that would speak volumes for themselves.
Interestingly though, we have now mentioned Winkle Brown. There's another thread running about the Mosquito and I am pretty sure that in 'Wings On My Sleeve' Brown selects the Sea Hornet for special mention - maybe as being the finest propeller fighter he flew?
(I am significantly displaced from my book shelf at the moment so can't check)
I am personally disappointed by the way this passionate advocate of maritime aviation has essentially self-fragged to the point of being a pantomime villain - in the main because I think that in amongst bluster and inaccuracies are truths that would speak volumes for themselves.
Interestingly though, we have now mentioned Winkle Brown. There's another thread running about the Mosquito and I am pretty sure that in 'Wings On My Sleeve' Brown selects the Sea Hornet for special mention - maybe as being the finest propeller fighter he flew?
(I am significantly displaced from my book shelf at the moment so can't check)
Originally Posted by orca
Interestingly though, we have now mentioned Winkle Brown. There's another thread running about the Mosquito and I am pretty sure that in 'Wings On My Sleeve' Brown selects the Sea Hornet for special mention - maybe as being the finest propeller fighter he flew?
He describes doing the first wartime carrier landing in a Mosquito during the war (I think at the time they were thinking of the landings in Italy, which were supported by carriers), then the first carrier landing of a Sea Hornet post war. Later he describes the DH Hornet as his favourite piston engined aircraft.
Wings On My Sleeve sets scene, not only for himself, but for the Fleet Air Arm at war. He describes the participation of the escort carrier Audacity is defending a convoy from long range aircraft and U boats. He describes a fairly significant battle, interestingly, because of the escort commander, Cdr (later Capt) Johnny Walker, and the participation of the first escort carrier, was described in the Wolfpack episode of The World At War.
His story of teaching new pilots to land aboard a carrier, and of trials of new aircraft and new (mainly escort) carriers illustrate how important carrier based aircraft were to the RN during the War, something disputed by certain PPRuNe posters on various threads.
As for Sharkey Ward becoming a Pantomime villain - surely a fighter pilot does want to get behind you, to be in an optimal missile firing position? I agree that his recent writing do have a low S/N ratio.
The book Churchill's Navy by Brian Lavery is worth a read if you can find it. As you might imagine it is a history of the RN in World War Two, but unlike other books about the subject, it does not focus too much on particular ships, battles, or personnel. He looks at the RN from a wider angle, and naval aviation gets mentioned throughout, as well as having a chapter dedicated to in and being mentioned in the chapters dealing with organisation, and things like communications, and ship design/building, and personnel, it also gets mentioned in terms of its contribution to the battle fleet, escort forces (Atlantic, Arctic, etc), and amphibious forces.
He discusses the problems the Fleet Air Arm had, but puts it in context and mention that the Navy only regained control of naval aviation months before war started, there were no Admirals of staff officers with aviation experience, naval aircraft were given low priority when it came to aircraft production, and so on.
Some of the lessons must resonant painfully with today's Admirals. The Admirals have the undersanding these days, but the politicians refuse to listen. They did not listen to the First Sea Lord at the time of SDSR, despite him being an ex CVS Captain.
Originally Posted by ShotOne
Sharky seems be allowed to pass on his opinion, almost always derogatory to the RAF, irrespective of whether its total rot, without any form of challenge. For instance he wrote an entirely nonsensical piece about how the Libyan air strikes would have been much cheaper from a carrier. Why do you let him do this without contradiction?
ORAC
Nice reminder. Those were innovative days back then. I remember seeing a documentary in which Rear Admiral Nick Goodhart explain who he had tested the concept of the Mirror Deck Landing Sight in his office using his secretary's lipstick and mirror. The concept to prototype time was shorter is those days. Modern shipborne landing aids (including those for helicopters landing aboard non carrier vessels) are derived from that brilliant piece of innovation.
Sadly, innovation has been all but killed of by the drive for mediocrity.
Originally Posted by SpazSinbad
The CVF deck landing aids equipment would be portable enough to take it to where the F-35Bs will be. Probaby PaxRiver (USN test facilities) or where the UK 3 F-35Bs will end up eventually at Edwards AFB for operational testing? My guess would be NAS Patuxent River - Ttere are dummy decks available along with a replica ski jump and all the F-35B test pilots in the world.
The USN (LSOs at least) are interested in the Bedford Array. Probably a good idea for the company to test it where the most potential users can see it in action?
The USN (LSOs at least) are interested in the Bedford Array. Probably a good idea for the company to test it where the most potential users can see it in action?
Everything intended for naval use (from a new 30mm cannon to a new radar) has have trials aboard ship, surely this applies here too? The system needs to be demonstrated aboard a ship (preferably RN) recovering STOVL aircraft that can simulate a 60 knot approach from astern.
Perhaps this is not dissimilar to the problem of preparing people for the future, as many different things need to take place within the confines of a moving ship. We can send a few people on exchange, but as I wondered, is that enough? We have the ability to simulate a carrier deck ashore at Culdrose, but it is static. Like equipment, people need to be tested and trained at sea. Many of the posts by the dark blue PPRuNe contingent (such as those quoted here) allude to that. Have Their Lordships managed to educate the Ministers?
Back to Churchill's Navy - reading gives you a sense of how similar today's issues are to those faced in the past, so the wisdom of trying to resolve them in ways that did not work then is questionable. The point is also made about the contribution of training to operational success - escort crews trained in simulators between convoys, and ships and escort groups put a lot of effort into work ups. He also mentions that commanders had much more freedom of action that they had during the First World War - another lesson perhaps?
To go back further into history, we could even draw lessons from historical commanders such as Nelson. The lessons are knowing your strengths and weaknesses and those of the opponent, understanding your weapon systems and how to use them to best effect, of every ship knowing what they needed to do, and of every man being extensively trained and knowing what to do. Even in Nelson's day most of the work of the Admiral took place before the battle.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 29th Jul 2013 at 07:08.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
'WEBF' said above:
No argument there - however my response to your entreaty earlier was in relation to there being no CVF for the time being. Certainly when the CVF is available I'll gather the landings aids will be installed (wot? no testing?) having been tested by computer simulation to then be tested in the real world. And please let us not forget the Bedford Array testing on one CVS many moons ago now with the VACC Harrier. I did not forget.
If you require real world real CVF testing you will have to wait eh.
______________
Sadly a lot of URL info about SRVLs from the past goes cold. Some old testing graphics / info has been provided in several threads here to my knowledge. Here is a new tidbit about RVL landings (put them on a ship to become SRVL).
STRIKE TEST NEWS Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 Newsletter 2012 Issue
http://www.navair.navy.mil/nawcad/in...ownload&id=670 [small pdf]
________________
Even USMC test pilots have been testing SRVLs in the simulator according to this link:
Aviation Week 28 Jul 2008
Click thumbnail on left
Aviation Week & Space Technology | Aug-04-08 | Inside | Zinio Digital Magazines
________________________
As has been mentioned earlier this long informative post is worthwhile scrolling down to read here:
Preparing for take-off: UK ramps up JSF carrier integration effort 11 Dec 2008 International Defence Review
Military Nuts -> The F-35 JSF/Lightning II thread
___________________________
Scroll down to Rolling Landings here:
Navy Matters | Future Aircraft Carrier Part 24
"...Surely the whole point about deck landing aids is that they are built to exist aboard ship and need to be tested aboard ship? After all, deck landing aids exist to help the pilot land his aircraft at sea, aboard a moving ship that has six axes of freedom - the linear motions of heave, sway, and surge, as well as the rotational ones of pitch, yaw, and roll, as well as intended movement through the sea. Then on top that are issues relating to things like vibration from the ship's powerplant and other machinery as well as EMC issues. It has to exist side by side with other equipment - from things like radars and communications systems to flight deck vehicles and RAS equipment.
Everything intended for naval use (from a new 30mm cannon to a new radar) has have trials aboard ship, surely this applies here too? The system needs to be demonstrated aboard a ship (preferably RN) recovering STOVL aircraft that can simulate a 60 knot approach from astern...."
Everything intended for naval use (from a new 30mm cannon to a new radar) has have trials aboard ship, surely this applies here too? The system needs to be demonstrated aboard a ship (preferably RN) recovering STOVL aircraft that can simulate a 60 knot approach from astern...."
If you require real world real CVF testing you will have to wait eh.
______________
Sadly a lot of URL info about SRVLs from the past goes cold. Some old testing graphics / info has been provided in several threads here to my knowledge. Here is a new tidbit about RVL landings (put them on a ship to become SRVL).
STRIKE TEST NEWS Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 23 Newsletter 2012 Issue
“...F-35B (STOVL) FLIGHT SCIENCES AIRCRAFT
For each variant, Flight Sciences aircraft specifically go after flight test data requirements that would not be available in a production configur-ation. Each aircraft has a unique set of instrumentation that has been incorporated throughout the airframe, making them truly one-of-a kind. They were the first to roll off the production line in Fort Worth, and each one is critical to the completion of the flight test program. The Flight Science jets do not have full sensor suites installed and do not run the block software that provides warfighting capabilities for the jet. Recent lines of testing are defined below for each aircraft. The BF-1 team completed loads testing of the new Auxiliary Air Inlet (AAI) door configuration in January 2012 with positive results. BF-1 has continued loads testing with unflared slow landings in STOVL mode....”
For each variant, Flight Sciences aircraft specifically go after flight test data requirements that would not be available in a production configur-ation. Each aircraft has a unique set of instrumentation that has been incorporated throughout the airframe, making them truly one-of-a kind. They were the first to roll off the production line in Fort Worth, and each one is critical to the completion of the flight test program. The Flight Science jets do not have full sensor suites installed and do not run the block software that provides warfighting capabilities for the jet. Recent lines of testing are defined below for each aircraft. The BF-1 team completed loads testing of the new Auxiliary Air Inlet (AAI) door configuration in January 2012 with positive results. BF-1 has continued loads testing with unflared slow landings in STOVL mode....”
________________
Even USMC test pilots have been testing SRVLs in the simulator according to this link:
Aviation Week 28 Jul 2008
Click thumbnail on leftAviation Week & Space Technology | Aug-04-08 | Inside | Zinio Digital Magazines
________________________
As has been mentioned earlier this long informative post is worthwhile scrolling down to read here:
Preparing for take-off: UK ramps up JSF carrier integration effort 11 Dec 2008 International Defence Review
Military Nuts -> The F-35 JSF/Lightning II thread
___________________________
Scroll down to Rolling Landings here:
"...Rolling Landings
The Lockheed Martin F-35B JSF has a lower payload "bring back" capability when using a vertical landing than the 2300kg that the RN had hoped for - it may therefore be necessary to jettison some unused weapons before landing and with modern weapons being extremely costly this is a significant issue.
In the summer of 2004 the MOD asked BAE Systems to investigate the possibility of ship borne rolling vertical landings (SRVL) - an SRVL approach would exploit the ability of the short take-off and vertical landing F-35B to use vectored thrust to slow the speed of the aircraft while still gaining the benefit of wing-borne lift. This offers the possibility of significantly increasing "bring-back" payload compared with a vertical recovery, while also reducing stress on the single-engined aircraft's propulsion system. Factors to be taken into consideration is the cost, feasibility and underpinning safety case of conducting shipborne rolling vertical landings aboard a CVF, adoption could also drive changes to the carrier design, pilot training regime and JCA flight control laws.
Following the initial UK studies, the American JSF programme office sponsored a more detailed analysis of the SRVL concept with Lockheed in 2004-5, culminating with a simulator trial at NASA's Ames Research Center in California in late 2005.
It was revealed in April 2007 that Qinetiq's VAAC Harrier testbed will be used to demonstrate flight-control limits for a SRVL mode potentially applicable to the Lockheed Martin F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The VAAC testbed will perform a series of flight trials, potentially using a large-deck aircraft carrier such as the French navy's FNS Charles de Gaulle, and concluding with a final evaluation of a preferred SRVL approach and landing using a "dummy deck" at Boscombe Down around November 2007. An MOD spokesman said "Consideration of the aerodynamic performance of JSF together with the available deck area of CVF design [same page immediately above this quote: "...In July 2007 it was officially stated that the flight deck area for the UK CVF variant was "nearly 13,000 sq m" (slightly less than previous statements had indicated)...] has shown that significant benefits could be realised by extending the principles of land-based RVL to shipborne operations ... the increasing maturity of this body of analysis and simulation indicates SRVL could be performed safely by JSF on CVF, although the effects of equipment failures and adverse conditions require further investigation".
Using SRVL F-35B aircraft would approach the carrier from astern at about 60 knots indicated air speed, 35 knots relative assuming 25 knots wind over deck (the maximum speed of a CVF will be 25 knots, so 25kts WOD is achievable even in dead calm) on a steep 5-6 degree glide path. Touch down would be about 150 feet from the stern with a stopping distance of 300 to 400 feet depending on conditions (wet flight deck, pitching ships etc). That would leave around 300 feet of flight deck for margin or even "bolters".
The SRVL technique has a significant impact on ship designs and aviation operations, Commander Tony Ray told a conference in February 2008 "We expect to trade some STOVL flexibility for increased bring-back and fuel. We have to .. check for for relevant CV criteria that apply to slower SRVL operations. For example flightpath control will be a far more important flight criteria for SRVL than it has been for STOVL. It is a CV trait creeping in"...."
The Lockheed Martin F-35B JSF has a lower payload "bring back" capability when using a vertical landing than the 2300kg that the RN had hoped for - it may therefore be necessary to jettison some unused weapons before landing and with modern weapons being extremely costly this is a significant issue.
In the summer of 2004 the MOD asked BAE Systems to investigate the possibility of ship borne rolling vertical landings (SRVL) - an SRVL approach would exploit the ability of the short take-off and vertical landing F-35B to use vectored thrust to slow the speed of the aircraft while still gaining the benefit of wing-borne lift. This offers the possibility of significantly increasing "bring-back" payload compared with a vertical recovery, while also reducing stress on the single-engined aircraft's propulsion system. Factors to be taken into consideration is the cost, feasibility and underpinning safety case of conducting shipborne rolling vertical landings aboard a CVF, adoption could also drive changes to the carrier design, pilot training regime and JCA flight control laws.
Following the initial UK studies, the American JSF programme office sponsored a more detailed analysis of the SRVL concept with Lockheed in 2004-5, culminating with a simulator trial at NASA's Ames Research Center in California in late 2005.
It was revealed in April 2007 that Qinetiq's VAAC Harrier testbed will be used to demonstrate flight-control limits for a SRVL mode potentially applicable to the Lockheed Martin F-35B Joint Strike Fighter. The VAAC testbed will perform a series of flight trials, potentially using a large-deck aircraft carrier such as the French navy's FNS Charles de Gaulle, and concluding with a final evaluation of a preferred SRVL approach and landing using a "dummy deck" at Boscombe Down around November 2007. An MOD spokesman said "Consideration of the aerodynamic performance of JSF together with the available deck area of CVF design [same page immediately above this quote: "...In July 2007 it was officially stated that the flight deck area for the UK CVF variant was "nearly 13,000 sq m" (slightly less than previous statements had indicated)...] has shown that significant benefits could be realised by extending the principles of land-based RVL to shipborne operations ... the increasing maturity of this body of analysis and simulation indicates SRVL could be performed safely by JSF on CVF, although the effects of equipment failures and adverse conditions require further investigation".
Using SRVL F-35B aircraft would approach the carrier from astern at about 60 knots indicated air speed, 35 knots relative assuming 25 knots wind over deck (the maximum speed of a CVF will be 25 knots, so 25kts WOD is achievable even in dead calm) on a steep 5-6 degree glide path. Touch down would be about 150 feet from the stern with a stopping distance of 300 to 400 feet depending on conditions (wet flight deck, pitching ships etc). That would leave around 300 feet of flight deck for margin or even "bolters".
The SRVL technique has a significant impact on ship designs and aviation operations, Commander Tony Ray told a conference in February 2008 "We expect to trade some STOVL flexibility for increased bring-back and fuel. We have to .. check for for relevant CV criteria that apply to slower SRVL operations. For example flightpath control will be a far more important flight criteria for SRVL than it has been for STOVL. It is a CV trait creeping in"...."
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 22nd Jul 2013 at 08:22.
No CVF in service yet, but the CVS provides a better representation of shipborne operation that a shore based test site. A Harrier can simulate an approaching F-35B, either by making an approach at 60 knots, or a normal vertical landing approach.
Presumably Queen Elizabeth will have to embark someone's jets to conduct first of class flying trials?
I still think the issues relating to personnel and skills are causing bigger headaches though.
Presumably Queen Elizabeth will have to embark someone's jets to conduct first of class flying trials?
I still think the issues relating to personnel and skills are causing bigger headaches though.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
Some RNers in USofA for SIX YEARS FFS! :-)
A GLOBAL FORCE 2012/13
The Fleet Air Arm Message from Rear Admiral Russ Harding OBE, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Aviation and Carriers)
&
Introducing the Queen Elizabeth class with its Lightning II F-35Bs Martin Temperley
&
Carrier strike Nick Childs
&
F-35 Lightning II: plan B up and running Peter Grant
Global Force 2013 (PDF 11Mb)
The Fleet Air Arm Message from Rear Admiral Russ Harding OBE, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Aviation and Carriers)
"...Looking further out into the future, the FAA is preparing itself for the introduction of the two new Queen Elizabeth-class carriers that will come into service at the end of the decade. Despite the withdrawal of the Harrier and the disbandment of the Naval Strike Wing, there has been no break in fixed-wing pilot recruitment and training. A small number of RN pilots are flying F-18 Hornets operationally with the US Navy. Personnel are also heavily engaged in the F-35B Lightning II programme with RN pilots and maintainers in the first training unit, VMFAT-501, at Eglin Air Force Base. Together, the RN and RAF have developed a comprehensive plan for the introduction of the Lightning II. We are standing up F-35B maintenance units from both the RAF and RN. Some of these men and women have transferred to a US-based training establishment which may be there for up to six years before transferring back to the UK. In addition, we are now in the process of setting up the test and evaluation squadron to be followed by the UK Operational Conversion Unit...."
Introducing the Queen Elizabeth class with its Lightning II F-35Bs Martin Temperley
"HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH and her sister ship PRINCE OF WALES are the largest warships ever built for the Royal Navy. The first ship, QUEEN ELIZABETH, a 65,000-ton super carrier, is scheduled to enter the water in 2014. Equipped with F-35B Lightning II multi-role jets and Merlin helicopters, the carriers will also be capable of operating British Army Apache and Royal Air force Chinook helicopters. The first ship is scheduled Introducing the Queen Elizabeth class with its Lightning II F-35Bs to be handed over to the Royal Navy in 2016. At sites in the United Kingdom and United States, preparations are well under way for the introduction of the F-35B, while the carrier’s procedures are also being perfected....
...PREPARING FOR THE CARRIERS
One of the first steps in preparing for the Queen Elizabeth class carriers has been the opening in 2012 of an engineering development facility for the mission system, which is the carrier’s nerve centre. It combines systems for air-traffic control, navigation, tactical picture compilation, communications and mission planning for the F-35 fighters and for the Merlin helicopters. This facility, at shore base HMS COLLINGWOOD in Hampshire, is completing engineering tests and trials using the same equipment that will be fitted to QUEEN ELIZABETH in Rosyth, Scotland. One of the ship’s unique features is two, instead of one, ‘island‘ superstructures on the flight deck, and the mission system will occupy the rearmost island, which is devoted to flying operations.
Being located in HMS COLLINGWOOD, it allows Royal Navy trainees to take part in large-scale trials from the start. The Royal Navy says: “By manning every Operations Room position with Royal Navy personnel ensures the equipment can be tested and loaded to its full capacity – something that has never been done before with previous mission systems.”
The first classes of UK maintenance personnel to work with the F-35B have completed courses at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, and one pilot each from the Royal Navy and RAF started instructor pilot training on the F-35B in late 2012, making them the first international instructors trained on the fighter.
Even after the ending of the Joint Harrier force in January 2011, when the Royal Navy’s 800 Naval Air Squadron disbanded, the Fleet Air Arm kept a core of almost 40 fixed-wing pilots, several of whom have been assigned to training programmes with the US Navy and are keeping their skills sharp by flying the F/A-18C Super Hornet fighter. Some of those pilots will go on to fly the F-35B, and more pilots will be recruited.
Royal Navy maintainers began training on the F-35B at the Academic Training Center at Eglin in July 2012. When the F-35B is operated from the new carrier, Royal Navy personnel in the trade of Air Engineering Technician will be in the ship to look after the aircraft. This trade covers mechanical, electrical, avionics or weapons specialities. Trade courses on the F-35, which are first a matter of ‘instructing the instructors’, are being steadily stepped up during 2013.
The ship’s company has already started to assemble, with a team of eight Royal Navy personnel wearing the cap tally ‘Queen Elizabeth’ working with the Aircraft Carrier Alliance shipbuilders at Rosyth since 2012. They are developing operating procedures and routines in advance of when the ship is handed over, which is scheduled for 2016.
The second ship in class is HMS PRINCE OF WALES, now under construction and scheduled to be commissioned in 2018. Before then, in 2015, further orders for the F-35B are expected to follow the 48 currently in the programme, and the UK’s supercarrier force will rapidly become operational. The F-35B will provide a faster route to carrier operational capability than the conventional take-off and landing F-35C, which was once schemed. These would have required catapults and arrestor wires to be fitted to the carrier, delaying its entry into service."
...PREPARING FOR THE CARRIERS
One of the first steps in preparing for the Queen Elizabeth class carriers has been the opening in 2012 of an engineering development facility for the mission system, which is the carrier’s nerve centre. It combines systems for air-traffic control, navigation, tactical picture compilation, communications and mission planning for the F-35 fighters and for the Merlin helicopters. This facility, at shore base HMS COLLINGWOOD in Hampshire, is completing engineering tests and trials using the same equipment that will be fitted to QUEEN ELIZABETH in Rosyth, Scotland. One of the ship’s unique features is two, instead of one, ‘island‘ superstructures on the flight deck, and the mission system will occupy the rearmost island, which is devoted to flying operations.
Being located in HMS COLLINGWOOD, it allows Royal Navy trainees to take part in large-scale trials from the start. The Royal Navy says: “By manning every Operations Room position with Royal Navy personnel ensures the equipment can be tested and loaded to its full capacity – something that has never been done before with previous mission systems.”
The first classes of UK maintenance personnel to work with the F-35B have completed courses at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida, and one pilot each from the Royal Navy and RAF started instructor pilot training on the F-35B in late 2012, making them the first international instructors trained on the fighter.
Even after the ending of the Joint Harrier force in January 2011, when the Royal Navy’s 800 Naval Air Squadron disbanded, the Fleet Air Arm kept a core of almost 40 fixed-wing pilots, several of whom have been assigned to training programmes with the US Navy and are keeping their skills sharp by flying the F/A-18C Super Hornet fighter. Some of those pilots will go on to fly the F-35B, and more pilots will be recruited.
Royal Navy maintainers began training on the F-35B at the Academic Training Center at Eglin in July 2012. When the F-35B is operated from the new carrier, Royal Navy personnel in the trade of Air Engineering Technician will be in the ship to look after the aircraft. This trade covers mechanical, electrical, avionics or weapons specialities. Trade courses on the F-35, which are first a matter of ‘instructing the instructors’, are being steadily stepped up during 2013.
The ship’s company has already started to assemble, with a team of eight Royal Navy personnel wearing the cap tally ‘Queen Elizabeth’ working with the Aircraft Carrier Alliance shipbuilders at Rosyth since 2012. They are developing operating procedures and routines in advance of when the ship is handed over, which is scheduled for 2016.
The second ship in class is HMS PRINCE OF WALES, now under construction and scheduled to be commissioned in 2018. Before then, in 2015, further orders for the F-35B are expected to follow the 48 currently in the programme, and the UK’s supercarrier force will rapidly become operational. The F-35B will provide a faster route to carrier operational capability than the conventional take-off and landing F-35C, which was once schemed. These would have required catapults and arrestor wires to be fitted to the carrier, delaying its entry into service."
Carrier strike Nick Childs
"...Another significant milestone occurred in October, when the first members of the ship’s company of HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH arrived in Rosyth. The eight crew members were led by Captain Simon Petitt. It is expected that, by the end of 2013, that this number will have grown to between 75 and 80 people. It will be the job of Captain Petitt and his growing team to learn about the ship and her technology, and to write the operating policy and procedures that will enable her to come into service in 2020....
...F-35B DELIVERIES BEGIN
Also significant was the delivery of Britain’s first F-35B, in a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, in July – an event that was attended attended by Philip Hammond. Despite the U-turn on the F-35 variant, the US Navy has stuck to its offer to provide pilot training and other carrier crew opportunities, so that the British can maintain carrier-operating skills. The French Navy will also offer what assistance it can from its own carrier capability.
Yet, with Britain for the moment still committed to buying only 48 F-35s initially, in a joint project with both the RN and the RAF, debate continued behind the scenes over operational issues. How many jets would normally be based at sea, and in what circumstances? Hammond appeared to settle that argument at the beginning of November. In a speech in London he declared that, “when deployed outside home waters, the new carrier will routinely have Lightning II jets embarked with personnel from both services”. He also confirmed that the normal number of jets would be 12, but with the ability to surge when necessary, and the QE class will be able to accommodate up to 36 F-35s.
Hammond also gave the strongest hint to date that the RN would keep both carriers available for operations. The cost of maintenance and a skeleton crew for the second ship would be, he said, a “modest” £70m. In his opinion, that was “an extremely good investment” to have a continuous carrier capability and the ability, “in extremis”, to surge to two carriers at a time of tension. For the RN, that would clearly be a tantalising prospect. But it is beginning to take on a tangible shape."
...F-35B DELIVERIES BEGIN
Also significant was the delivery of Britain’s first F-35B, in a ceremony in Fort Worth, Texas, in July – an event that was attended attended by Philip Hammond. Despite the U-turn on the F-35 variant, the US Navy has stuck to its offer to provide pilot training and other carrier crew opportunities, so that the British can maintain carrier-operating skills. The French Navy will also offer what assistance it can from its own carrier capability.
Yet, with Britain for the moment still committed to buying only 48 F-35s initially, in a joint project with both the RN and the RAF, debate continued behind the scenes over operational issues. How many jets would normally be based at sea, and in what circumstances? Hammond appeared to settle that argument at the beginning of November. In a speech in London he declared that, “when deployed outside home waters, the new carrier will routinely have Lightning II jets embarked with personnel from both services”. He also confirmed that the normal number of jets would be 12, but with the ability to surge when necessary, and the QE class will be able to accommodate up to 36 F-35s.
Hammond also gave the strongest hint to date that the RN would keep both carriers available for operations. The cost of maintenance and a skeleton crew for the second ship would be, he said, a “modest” £70m. In his opinion, that was “an extremely good investment” to have a continuous carrier capability and the ability, “in extremis”, to surge to two carriers at a time of tension. For the RN, that would clearly be a tantalising prospect. But it is beginning to take on a tangible shape."
F-35 Lightning II: plan B up and running Peter Grant
"...Once the first UK pilots have completed their training at Eglin, which began on 19 March 2013, they will be used as instructor pilots to train USMC colleagues, gaining experience and knowledge of the F-35 before undertaking Operational Test on a joint operational unit from mid 2014. Beyond Operational Test, the UK’s first operational squadron will form in the US from 2016 as part of a joint effort with the USMC, transitioning back to the UK in 2018. To be RAF Marham in Morfolk, it will work up as an independent unit aiming to attain a land-based Initial Operating Capability (IOC) by the end of 2018, which matches the arrival of the first of the new aircraft carriers, HMS QUEEN ELIZABETH, when embarked flying trials will get under way. It is planned to reach maritime IOC by 2020.
Speaking to Global Reach, Commodore Rick Thompson RN, head of the JCA Lighting Project Team at the MoD, was enthusiastic over not just the capability that Lightning II will bring to the UK, but also the joint nature in which it has been procured and is being introduced into service thus far. “The success of this small team spread across the US and UK is its truly Joint nature, delivering the OT aircraft on time and within budget,” he said. “It is impressive what can be achieved when you have a single joint vision with Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and US Marine Corps pilots, maintainers and logisticians all working together in a ‘purple’ environment to deliver a common, world-beating capability.”
The F-35, Thompson said, “is capable, survivable and based on commonality across all three variants to ensure affordability. It will contribute to the widest range of operational roles, ashore and afloat, and has been optimised for expeditionary warfare.”
Speaking to Global Reach, Commodore Rick Thompson RN, head of the JCA Lighting Project Team at the MoD, was enthusiastic over not just the capability that Lightning II will bring to the UK, but also the joint nature in which it has been procured and is being introduced into service thus far. “The success of this small team spread across the US and UK is its truly Joint nature, delivering the OT aircraft on time and within budget,” he said. “It is impressive what can be achieved when you have a single joint vision with Royal Navy, Royal Air Force and US Marine Corps pilots, maintainers and logisticians all working together in a ‘purple’ environment to deliver a common, world-beating capability.”
The F-35, Thompson said, “is capable, survivable and based on commonality across all three variants to ensure affordability. It will contribute to the widest range of operational roles, ashore and afloat, and has been optimised for expeditionary warfare.”
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 29th Jul 2013 at 09:01. Reason: Another story(s)
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: A lot closer to the sea
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spaz,
Some RN and RAF F-35 maintainers have already been hands-on with the F-35B for nearly 5 years during the build and developmental test process. They are subject matter experts and will be the experienced core of 17(R) Sqn at Edwards.
Our relationship with the US on F-35, Reaper, P-8 Seedcorn and Airseeker, as well as all the usual exchanges means that a tour or two in the US is a real possibility for many personnel. It makes a lot of sense to keep the experience where it's needed.
Some RN and RAF F-35 maintainers have already been hands-on with the F-35B for nearly 5 years during the build and developmental test process. They are subject matter experts and will be the experienced core of 17(R) Sqn at Edwards.
Our relationship with the US on F-35, Reaper, P-8 Seedcorn and Airseeker, as well as all the usual exchanges means that a tour or two in the US is a real possibility for many personnel. It makes a lot of sense to keep the experience where it's needed.
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
'WEBF' asked about 'who's on first'? Answers below on the back of a napkin...
F35 News 28 July 2013 by Think Defence
F35 News | Think Defence
OR
UK Will Try To Boost F-35B Landing Weight 05 Jul 2013 AIN Defense Perspective
UK Will Try To Boost F-35B Landing Weight | Aviation International News
F35 News 28 July 2013 by Think Defence
“Senior British military officials confirmed that the UK will conduct shipboard rolling vertical landing (SRVL) trials on the F-35B version of the Lockheed Martin Lightning II stealth combat jet. The SRVL technique would allow the aircraft to land at higher weights than is currently possible in the VTOL mode. The officials said they are satisfied that the F-35B could bring back the internal weapons load that is initially planned, comprising–in the UK case–two AMRAAM air-air missiles and two Paveway IV smart bombs weighing some 5,000 pounds. But, one added, when high temperature and/or low pressure conditions prevail–such as in the Gulf of Oman–it would be prudent to achieve another 2,000 to 4,000 pounds of bring-back weight, for either fuel or weapons, especially since the F-35 will be able to carry additional weapons on wing pylons, when stealth is not a requirement....”
OR
UK Will Try To Boost F-35B Landing Weight 05 Jul 2013 AIN Defense Perspective
"...The UK will formally decide later this year on a further purchase of F-35s, beyond the three already acquired (at a cost of $350 million) for test and evaluation (T&E). The number under consideration is believed to be 15, enough to equip an initial operational squadron. Another 30 are likely to be approved before 2015, when another British defense review will consider how many more F-35s the country can afford. Until then, the officials maintained, the UK “program of record” remains a total of 138 F-35s. Most observers believe that the UK will not acquire more than 100 F-35s, and some suggest the final total might be as low as 70.
The officials revealed that the UK will work closely with the U.S. Marine Corps to bring its F-35Bs into operational service. After it is formed in 2016, the first British squadron will be based at MCAS Yuma and integrated with the co-located USMC F-35B fleet. Pilots of both services will be able to fly the others’ aircraft. The squadron will relocate to RAF Marham in the UK in early 2018 and be ready for combat from land bases by the end of that year.
Meanwhile, the UK’s three T&E jets will embark on the new Queen Elizabeth II aircraft carrier for trials in the same year."
The officials revealed that the UK will work closely with the U.S. Marine Corps to bring its F-35Bs into operational service. After it is formed in 2016, the first British squadron will be based at MCAS Yuma and integrated with the co-located USMC F-35B fleet. Pilots of both services will be able to fly the others’ aircraft. The squadron will relocate to RAF Marham in the UK in early 2018 and be ready for combat from land bases by the end of that year.
Meanwhile, the UK’s three T&E jets will embark on the new Queen Elizabeth II aircraft carrier for trials in the same year."
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia OZ
Age: 75
Posts: 2,586
Likes: 0
Received 53 Likes
on
46 Posts
RNers on CVNs & LHAs for BIG Deck Experience
Just like riding an Ike... Navy News July 2013
201307 Navy News Jul 13= 
"...Thanks to an agreement with Washington - the US-UK Long Lead Specialist Skills Programme - a kernel of around 300 personnel from both the Royal Navy and Royal Air Force will be trained aboard American warships until the end of the decade.
Since the beginning of 2013, RN personnel have been serving with the assault ship USS Kearsarge and the Eisenhower. This month an eight-strong group of Brits joins USS Harry S Truman....
..."It is important that we learn about using these large flight decks," he [CPO Gager] added"
Since the beginning of 2013, RN personnel have been serving with the assault ship USS Kearsarge and the Eisenhower. This month an eight-strong group of Brits joins USS Harry S Truman....
..."It is important that we learn about using these large flight decks," he [CPO Gager] added"
Last edited by SpazSinbad; 1st Aug 2013 at 22:08. Reason: JPeG add
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: A lot closer to the sea
Posts: 665
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Getting back towards the thread I wonder if Sharky's views would change if he were to visit Eglin or Pax River and see what the UK is up to with regards F-35 first hand?
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Yeovil,Somerset
Age: 52
Posts: 53
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello all.
I think this is the 1st actual post I have made on PPrune, so please be gentle with this little civvie....
I would like to say that I am regularly in contact with Cdr Ward and in my dealings with him he has been a delight. Very helpful, polite and informative.
I think you will find that Cdr Ward has indeed visited some of the FAA guys in the US, as some of them served alongside his son Kris.
I recently wrote an article for Airforces Monthly with a lot of the current FAA chaps in the US. To the best of my knowledge there is now around 20 FAA aircrew serving within various USN squadrons and Carrier Air Wings.
There is now, AFAIK, 3 FAA instructors permanently based at NAS Meridian, this where the UK pilots start their conversion to USN carrier-based aircraft.
I believe, from independent sources in the US, that the RAF 'Flyers' are somewhat lagging behind compared to the FAA chaps with regards to carrier-ops. For this I can only assume that the USN are looking towards the RN for their Carrier experience
I would like to just add that for anyone thinking that the RAF can easily undertake carrier ops, so negate the need for fixed-wing FAA, then I will say that they had better 'up their game' because if the RAFs performance in last years 'Cougar 12' exercise is a representation of how they will conduct 'Maritime' ops then we are in trouble......
Be gentle.....
Edit; actually this is my 3rd post......but still be gentle...
I think this is the 1st actual post I have made on PPrune, so please be gentle with this little civvie....
I would like to say that I am regularly in contact with Cdr Ward and in my dealings with him he has been a delight. Very helpful, polite and informative.
I think you will find that Cdr Ward has indeed visited some of the FAA guys in the US, as some of them served alongside his son Kris.
I recently wrote an article for Airforces Monthly with a lot of the current FAA chaps in the US. To the best of my knowledge there is now around 20 FAA aircrew serving within various USN squadrons and Carrier Air Wings.
There is now, AFAIK, 3 FAA instructors permanently based at NAS Meridian, this where the UK pilots start their conversion to USN carrier-based aircraft.
I believe, from independent sources in the US, that the RAF 'Flyers' are somewhat lagging behind compared to the FAA chaps with regards to carrier-ops. For this I can only assume that the USN are looking towards the RN for their Carrier experience
I would like to just add that for anyone thinking that the RAF can easily undertake carrier ops, so negate the need for fixed-wing FAA, then I will say that they had better 'up their game' because if the RAFs performance in last years 'Cougar 12' exercise is a representation of how they will conduct 'Maritime' ops then we are in trouble......
Be gentle.....
Edit; actually this is my 3rd post......but still be gentle...
Last edited by lmgaylard; 3rd Aug 2013 at 15:54. Reason: Realised this was my 3rd post.
Your blatant anti-RAF comments clearly mean you are the man himself because you just couldn't resist taking a swipe.
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: S of 55N
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IMGAYLARD said
What was the RAF's contribution to Cougar 12?
To the best of my knowledge the only Air contribution was:
Regards,
Sun.
if the RAFs performance in last years 'Cougar 12' exercise is a representation of how they will conduct 'Maritime' ops then we are in trouble......
To the best of my knowledge the only Air contribution was:
- 4 x Sea King Mk4 helicopters from 845 NAS, Joint Helicopter Command
- 3 x Lynx AH7 helicopters from 847 NAS, Joint Helicopter Command
- 3 x Apache AH 1 helicopters from 656 Sqn AAC, Joint Helicopter Command
- 2 x Lynx Mk8 helicopters from 815 NAS
- 2 x Sea King Mk7 ASaC helicopters from 854 NAS
Regards,
Sun.
And having spoken to a RN FA-18 Pilot, who had experience on the JFH on Ships and in Afg, he expressed a completely different view about his RAF oppo's. I know who I trust....
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: .
Posts: 2,173
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sun Who
I think Mr Gaylards point about Cougar 12 is that the RAF weren't there at all.....not even an E3 giving overhead cover
As for asking his provenance, I don't know him, but given that Gaylard is a very old real Somerset name I strongly suspect that he's one of the few posters here who is using his real identity. Should be easy for you to check out given his comments about publishing in Airforces Monthly
I think Mr Gaylards point about Cougar 12 is that the RAF weren't there at all.....not even an E3 giving overhead cover
As for asking his provenance, I don't know him, but given that Gaylard is a very old real Somerset name I strongly suspect that he's one of the few posters here who is using his real identity. Should be easy for you to check out given his comments about publishing in Airforces Monthly
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: S of 55N
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Milo,
Both fair points, although I don't interpret
as simply an observation that the RAF weren't there. I guess the poster has an opportunity to clarify his point.
Wrt the posters identity, I was working on the assumption that their first initial is L. He can deny, confirm or otherwise at his leisure (or possibly her leisure if my assumption is wrong) should they choose to post again and expand their observation.
Yours,
Sun.
Both fair points, although I don't interpret
they had better 'up their game'
Wrt the posters identity, I was working on the assumption that their first initial is L. He can deny, confirm or otherwise at his leisure (or possibly her leisure if my assumption is wrong) should they choose to post again and expand their observation.
Yours,
Sun.
WYSIWYG. Aviation writer Lewis Gaylard fits the bill.
Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: England's green and pleasant land
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Gaylard,
I understand you are a self-confessed Naval Aviation journalist and therefore you write with bias. This is evident from your last post so I shall refrain from 'biting' too much...
The RN does indeed have a significantly higher footprint in the US currently flying on or training to fly on large decks - if they didn't the FW aspect of the FAA would now certainly be almost gone if not completely gone. I respect the Naval Service's approach to maintaining the history, sacrifice and tradition of the FAA and doing its very utmost to preserve it for the future and for F-35B. You do, however, do yourself a disservice by intimating that the RAF had 'better up their game'. Why? Because it continues to fuel the fire that has plagued Pprune for nearly 200 pages on another thread (F-35...) and, frankly, second hand opinions from single sources don't reflect the complete truth. IF the RAF have a long way to go on developing maritime TTPs then I'm sure it will be done in a collaborative way with the SMEs - I'll tell you as a light blue pilot that yes, we have much fewer SMEs flying from US large decks but they are there as seed corn for F-35. We cannot put more out there as the money doesn't exist to do so but mainly because we have 2 other Front Line types to 'man' until F-35 comes into service; one is engaged on permanent ops and has been since 1991; the other is expanding rapidly as a multi-role force to be reckoned with.
When the time is right you'll find the RAF will expand its experience accordingly, will unlikely try to throw around its weight and will learn to conduct blue water carrier-enabled ops in collaboration with its RN brothers and sisters. Politics aside, I enjoyed my own time aboard immensely and had (and still have) a deep and profound respect for my SHar colleagues at sea and in the desert on GR9 when we were there.
I'll respectfully suggest to you that a few comments based on one particular Ex that you probably didn't observe first-hand is no evidence base to inflame a debate that should just go away.
I understand you are a self-confessed Naval Aviation journalist and therefore you write with bias. This is evident from your last post so I shall refrain from 'biting' too much...
The RN does indeed have a significantly higher footprint in the US currently flying on or training to fly on large decks - if they didn't the FW aspect of the FAA would now certainly be almost gone if not completely gone. I respect the Naval Service's approach to maintaining the history, sacrifice and tradition of the FAA and doing its very utmost to preserve it for the future and for F-35B. You do, however, do yourself a disservice by intimating that the RAF had 'better up their game'. Why? Because it continues to fuel the fire that has plagued Pprune for nearly 200 pages on another thread (F-35...) and, frankly, second hand opinions from single sources don't reflect the complete truth. IF the RAF have a long way to go on developing maritime TTPs then I'm sure it will be done in a collaborative way with the SMEs - I'll tell you as a light blue pilot that yes, we have much fewer SMEs flying from US large decks but they are there as seed corn for F-35. We cannot put more out there as the money doesn't exist to do so but mainly because we have 2 other Front Line types to 'man' until F-35 comes into service; one is engaged on permanent ops and has been since 1991; the other is expanding rapidly as a multi-role force to be reckoned with.
When the time is right you'll find the RAF will expand its experience accordingly, will unlikely try to throw around its weight and will learn to conduct blue water carrier-enabled ops in collaboration with its RN brothers and sisters. Politics aside, I enjoyed my own time aboard immensely and had (and still have) a deep and profound respect for my SHar colleagues at sea and in the desert on GR9 when we were there.
I'll respectfully suggest to you that a few comments based on one particular Ex that you probably didn't observe first-hand is no evidence base to inflame a debate that should just go away.
Last edited by MSOCS; 4th Aug 2013 at 10:26.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: North Yorkshire
Age: 82
Posts: 641
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I cannot see that Mr Gaylard has posted anything particularly inflamatory. It is the acute sensitivity of the boys in light blue to even the slightest hint of criticism that is apparent. And of course any reference to the dreaded bearded ace can be guaranteed to set the wings flapping!
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: S of 55N
Posts: 360
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree. Mr Gaylard, if 'tis indeed he, has done nothing wrong and said nothing inflammatory, it would just be helpful to understand why he thinks the RAF need to 'up their game'.
Sun.
Sun.