Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Aircrew Forums > Military Aviation
Reload this Page >

Here it comes: Syria

Military Aviation A forum for the professionals who fly military hardware. Also for the backroom boys and girls who support the flying and maintain the equipment, and without whom nothing would ever leave the ground. All armies, navies and air forces of the world equally welcome here.

Here it comes: Syria

Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:01
  #1181 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
Yes, I would have obeyed it as well.

Re the Belgrano, I was only referring to no state of war being declared,
I have read both sides and both agree it was OK.


One of the reasons I am not sure the ICC is good for all because
you can be hauled up at a later date !
500N is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:02
  #1182 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,289
And what happens when Obama jettisons international law? Russia, China and Iran then do likewise...

Iran closes the straits of Hormuz, china issues an ultimatum to Taiwan, Russia deploys an air defence regiment to Damascus and shoves Three armoured divisions towards the Polish border and goes to defcon one. the Black Sea fleet closes the Turkish shore. The Russian supply routes out of Afghanistan are closed and the Taliban get supplied Russian MANPADS.

Are any of you aware from Wikileaks that Americas air superiority is contingent on an absence of MANPADS in terrorist hands? are you aware that any chunk of MANPADS is worth $3000 in cash, no questions asked, at any American establishment around the world?

As for Russian gas supplies to Western Europe, are you aware that the same hip pocket crap about economics deterring war was hauled out before both WWI AND WWII?

"The Russians, Germans French etc. will never go to war because it doesn't make economic sense, their economies are entangled, blah blah" guess what?


There is a great deal China and Russia can do, or as you should know if any of you are commissioned, your charges can make more trouble for you, than you can for them. God help America if they go through with this.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:06
  #1183 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
Sunfish

Re "are you aware that any chunk of MANPADS is worth $3000 in cash, no questions asked,
at any American establishment around the world?"


Are you saying that you can BUY a Manpad from any US establishment
OR (as I think you are saying) the US will pay $3000 if you deliver to them
a Manpad or part there of ?

Last edited by 500N; 5th Sep 2013 at 09:07.
500N is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:20
  #1184 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 7,289
Via the Wikileaks cables, America has a long standing program to buy up any MANPADS, "surplus to requirements" or time expired, made by anyone, anywhere, to ensure they are kept out of the black market. the figure from memory was $3000 per unit, and bought from anyone, government or individual, no questions asked, just to keep them out of terrorist hands.

To put that another way, everyone knows how ubiquitous the RPG 7 system is. Ever wondered why the same assholes doNt have (much ) access to MANPADS?

To put that yet another way, what happens to RPT aviation if say, ten MANPADS were loose in jihadis hands in Britain?

What happens if Russia and China decide to do a little "rebel supporting" of their own? How do you think Britain would react if a Russian was seen wining and dining members of the real IRA or whatever it's called?

Last edited by Sunfish; 5th Sep 2013 at 09:23.
Sunfish is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:28
  #1185 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
It is a good idea of the US.

Aviation would be stuffed.

We have a few 66mm Rocket Launchers on the loose in Aus
that were knocked off by some soldier a few years ago.
I think they have only found 1 or 2 and it shytes the daylights
out of the Gov't that they are still out there.

IF Russia and China do as you say - and I don't think they would,
the West is in serious trouble.

A bit like when Libya sent a heap of Semtex / C4 and Weapons to the IRA.

Last edited by 500N; 5th Sep 2013 at 09:28.
500N is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:37
  #1186 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: UK
Posts: 1,744
One should never assume that political leaders are blessed with gifts of common sense. Indeed, almost all seem to be blinded by ego, some twisted form of idealogy and/or self promotion to achieve wealth and status, to the extent that they are unable to resolve moral dilemas that a debating group of intelligent 18 year-olds would make a good stab at.
On another issue, Service personel should be in no doubt about the position they hold in the eye of the "Law". The "Law" is a total ass! You are expected to have total knowledge of LOAC, the Geneva Convention and all laws. It also helps if you are fighting on the winning side and are never captured by your enemy.

OAP
Onceapilot is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 09:52
  #1187 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 94
Read up on Dempsey.....you will find he lacks Wedding Tackle when it would be quite useful for the Troops if he did.
Smear tactics. Very noble.
Broadsword*** is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:02
  #1188 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: uk
Posts: 94
Service personel should be in no doubt about the position they hold in the eye of the "Law". The "Law" is a total ass! You are expected to have total knowledge of LOAC, the Geneva Convention and all laws. It also helps if you are fighting on the winning side and are never captured by your enemy.
It is part of their job to have at least a rudimentary knowledge of LOAC, most of which is based on common sense (e.g. Don't abuse POWs).
Broadsword*** is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:11
  #1189 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
Onceapilot

We, at least in the Aust Army had quite a few lesson in Geneva,
ROE etc and I know that before the last 10 years of war it was
well covered abut what was what.

Even in the Reserves we had Red and Yellow ROE cards
and we we kicked hard if we moved away from the wording
etc.
500N is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:42
  #1190 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit MI
Age: 61
Posts: 1,463
Chugs:

They will come down fast about your head, and given past precedent in the UK, it will be you that is in the poo and not the superior who issued you the order. Tough!
It is worth noting that all superiors have a duty not to issue an order to their subordinates that they know to be illegal. I believe the it may also be true in the British military that they must not issue an order they know will not be obeyed but I stand to be corrected on that.
Airborne Aircrew is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 10:49
  #1191 (permalink)  
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Lincolnshire
Age: 76
Posts: 16,580
Originally Posted by Onceapilot View Post
It also helps if you are fighting on the winning side and are never captured by your enemy.

OAP
Wise words. We didn't need much imagination had we miraculously survived a nuclear strike, landed in some uncontaminated area, and been asked what our mission had been.

I don't think the bug four would have got you very far. As for sheltering behind the Geneva Convention . . .

I actually think that prisoners in Iraq during GW1 were outstandingly lucky.
Pontius Navigator is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 12:14
  #1192 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Darkest Surrey
Posts: 5,838
As I said....if you are given marching orders by the President and you know in your Heart they shall lead to an ugly end.....you stand up, resign on the spot, Salute, do an About Face and march smartly off to clean out your desk on your way home on your first day of Retirement.

As a Four Star you owe it to the Troops to do the absolute right thing even if it means ending your career on the spot.

Otherwise.....the entire house collapses from Rot.


Worth reposting.
racedo is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 12:15
  #1193 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Australia - South of where I'd like to be !
Age: 54
Posts: 4,245
AA

"It is worth noting that all superiors have a duty not to issue an order to their subordinates that they know to be illegal. I believe the it may also be true in the British military that they must not issue an order they know will not be obeyed but I stand to be corrected on that."

Not just the UK, Australia as well. Your post reminded me from my training
about the issue of illegal orders to my troops.
500N is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 13:18
  #1194 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: "Deplorable but happy as a drunken Monkey!
Age: 70
Posts: 16,309
The Japanese conducted a limited Air Strike only.....no Boots on the Ground attack a while back at a place called Pearl Harbor as I recall.

I spent the evening watching the Senate Committee hearing that led to the 10/7 Vote. I also watched the Committee debate amendments to the Senate Resolution.

Rand Paul and some others made very good arguments.....Menedez quite plainly is manipulating the process to favor Obama. He tabled an Amendment that would have forced a debate on exactly what powers a President has re initiating Military Attacks and if it is possible to engage in War like activities without Declaring War on the Nation being attacked.

The Democrats very much do not want to go there.....as that would effectively kill this proposed venture by Obama.





Last edited by SASless; 5th Sep 2013 at 13:24.
SASless is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 13:21
  #1195 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,897
"As President Obama argues in favour of a punitive strike on Syria, the issue of the moment in Washington is whether America's credibility and reputation are imperiled. Neil Macdonald says that to talk seriously about American credibility, especially in the Middle East, requires both a disassociation from history and an utter absence of irony."

Obama's indecision on Syria strains U.S. credibility: Neil Macdonald - World - CBC News
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 14:17
  #1196 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,342
The general contempt for international law here suggests a rather disturbing trend. One can only hope this attitude predominates only among jaded veterans and is not prevalent among those still serving, especially those with any sort of command responsibility.
You need to understand, Broadsword***, that International Law is only as good as the norms it grows from, and its enforcement, like any other body of law. It's a bit less clear than the local statute against dumping hazmat in the local reservoir. Sadly, since you don't understand that, you seem to have put "international law" up on a pedastal in an ivory tower. Of course you are going to be disappointed ... you've set yourself up for it. Some people are under fewer illusions about what international law is, and how it gets established or followed.

Neil Macdonaldof the CBC
More than two years ago, Obama and his officials began declaring that Assad must go. Now, fearing who might come next, “regime change” in Syria is out, and “containment” is in. Any military strikes will somehow be limited to deterring use of chemical weapons without influencing the outcome of the civil war — as though such a thing is possible.
He put his finger right on the G spot there ...
He then goes on to endorse the idea that America must accept the Muslim world's blame for the Crusades, and all other colonial malfeasance in the Mid East by the west's varoius powers, as a valid guilt by association.

Well, **** him, and **** every cnut who takes that position.

I don't blame the Egyptians for what Saddam did to the Kurds, because I am not an idiot. I also don't blame the Ayatollah today for what the Persians did to the Greeks back before Alexander's time, because, again, I am not an idiot.
But America singles itself out. And, of course, so did Barack Obama. He was going to be so different. It would appear he’s not.
Whilst I appreciate Neil's frustration with American exceptionalism, since I guess it makes his Canadian dick smaller (???), even though that very principle has been an immense benefit to Canada since about 1917, and a lot of the world thanks to American Exceptionalism's influence on the UN being started, sustained, and funded for about 70 years ... **** him again.

Neil wrote a pretty good article, and a good critique of the policy fubars currently in progress. That he could not contain his less brilliant feelings is unfortunate, but not fatal.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 5th Sep 2013 at 14:24.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 14:34
  #1197 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,897
But in a region where people remember the betrayal of the Sykes-Picot agreement as though it was yesterday (Great Britain and France secretly carved up the Middle East between them after World War One), and regard the Crusades as though they happened last week, it is the long history of American and other Western actions that burdens the U.S.
Lonewolf I disagree about this implying it was all the US's fault. That the muslims blame us for everything is a burden. Sykes-Picot, propping up the Shah of Iran, Invasion of Iraq etc was 'our' fault, but I don't read this as Neil saying it was all our fault.
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 14:37
  #1198 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,342
Fox:
As I read it, he's saying that the blame from there to here, directed at America, to be expected and valid. I don't buy it any more than I buy the idiot line popular around 2002/2003 that somehow Saddam was complicit in 9/11.

The opinions of the ignorant ought not be endorsed, nor apologized for.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 14:48
  #1199 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 2,897
I agree about the "expected", but not the "valid".
I do, however, accept your interpretation as possible. Do we know his views from other articles? I'll have a check sometime in the next few days.
Fox3WheresMyBanana is offline  
Old 5th Sep 2013, 14:51
  #1200 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Texas
Age: 60
Posts: 5,342
For all my nagging, his article is a good one, in terms of his policy critique.
As I said, he more or less hit the G spot on that one.

Last edited by Lonewolf_50; 5th Sep 2013 at 14:52.
Lonewolf_50 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.