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Here it comes: Syria

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Here it comes: Syria

Old 4th Sep 2013, 23:58
  #1141 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
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Originally Posted by 500N View Post
"special" relationship"

When the US wants it to be. The rest of the time, fcuk the UK,
we'll do whatever we want regardless of history, law etc.

Falklands being a good recent example.

"And as for us being kicked out of meetings, so what, live with it."

The US will still come up with the same solution, regardless
of British military officers being involved.
Wholeheartedly agree. I cringe whenever our media roll out that horrid platitude. Yes let's work together as we always have on common interests. But it really is time to ditch that meaningless phrase , serves no purpose, actually hinders.
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Old 4th Sep 2013, 23:58
  #1142 (permalink)  
 
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Westy,

Befehl is Befehl!

Read McMaster's book...."Dereliction of Duty".

Now think about this....McCain had put a "Hold" on Dempsey's Nomination for a Second Term as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff....but just recently released that Hold so the General can have his second term.

It would appear Dempsey in the recent past was very much against what is being proposed and by saying so ran afoul of McCain....thus the "Hold".

Now....we see Dempsey going with the flow....the "Hold" is off....and we are headed to War.

We, who served in Vietnam were sold out by our Senior Military Leadership....and as far as I am concerned our current generation are not being served much better by the current bunch.

McCain has been pushing for more involvement in Syria.

Until very recently Dempsey was against it before he became for it.

You reckon Vietnam might have turned out for the better if we would have had some Generals that would have refused to obey LBJ's orders and when it came to a crisis.....looked LBJ in the eye and tell him...."Mr. President, that is not an order I can carry out and live with myself afterwards....get yourself someone else....I Resign!". How many would it have taken before he did find someone....and how long would it have taken for the Media and his opposition to catch on to what was happening.

The way I see it....Martin Dempsey is in exactly that situation and he opted for four more years as Chairman....just as the Vietnam era Chiefs did.



McCain calls Dempsey's warning against attack on Syria 'disingenuous' | JPost | Israel News
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:03
  #1143 (permalink)  
 
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SaSless

I know this is the upper echelons of the US mil but frankly,
if I was President, I would want someone who would speak
their mind and say what is what without fear and then once
i had made a decision, carry it out.

If you have a Chairman who is afraid to speak his mind,
then i reckon you are not getting the best advice.

Yes, their are ways to do it and some do it better than others
but it still needs saying.

Just my HO.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:15
  #1144 (permalink)  
 
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No doubt it's a tough job, part of wearing a uniform is being a chameleon and Dempsey is stuck doing that. He has spoken in public about his misgivings, something that I would think cost him some political capital.

Really doesn't matter what you or I think of him. He is the man wearing the uniform and helping to shape the response for better or worse. We can work within that reality or bitch about some theoretical path under some other JCS.

I'm usually with you SAS, but I'm not going to trample on Dempsey. I've heard less than stellar things about McMaster as well, I believe the egos at the 3-4 star level make for some ugly politics that make the belt ways games look childish. I recognize heaping praise on someone doesn't sell books, crapping on someone does.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:17
  #1145 (permalink)  
 
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Broadsword:

Self-appointed forum president for life are we, AA?
An entirely predicable response... Ignore the subject matter completely, just go for the man... I applaud your scintillating intellect...

West Coast:

I imagine Dempsey is a good soldier.
I'm sure Dempsey was a good soldier. The problem with good soldiers is that they end up getting promoted to a point where their future can be controlled by pricks of enormous magnitude. By which time they have so much invested in their lives and careers that they can rarely do anything but follow the direction of their craphead civilian "leaders". Sad, but an honest interpretation of reality...
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:21
  #1146 (permalink)  
 
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AA

Give me specific, unbiased, credible evidence and I'll reconsider. He has said this isn't a good direction to take. What would you have him do? What else can a JCS do within the powers they have?

Last edited by West Coast; 5th Sep 2013 at 00:23.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:40
  #1147 (permalink)  
 
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West:

I can say "This is stupid, the administration are idiots and this course of action must not be taken". I can also say "This action is not a good direction to take"...

Where I JCS which do you think I'd say to protect my future? Which do you think I'd say if I were several layers down the totem pole with less reliance and investment in the system?

No "evidence" is needed. The guarded phraseology says it all...
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:45
  #1148 (permalink)  
 
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AA said:
An entirely predicable response... Ignore the subject matter completely, just go for the man... I applaud your scintillating intellect...
I believe I was discussing the subject matter when you butted-in with your personal insults and your declaration that you speak for the entire forum. Some might say your behaviour mirrors that of a delusional hypocrite. I, of course, would never suggest such a thing.

Last edited by Broadsword***; 5th Sep 2013 at 00:58.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:50
  #1149 (permalink)  
 
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Broadsword

The mods are getting very hot about personal attacks.

Argue the point, not the man is all I can say having learn't
from previous mistakes !
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:52
  #1150 (permalink)  
 
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Certainly the Great British Public seem to have spoken out this time -

and nobody enjoys a good punch up more than us given half a chance.

My gut feeling is that we so mistrust well shod, smug, public ( privately

educated ) schoolboys who have never earned a quid/buck in their lives

that intervention won`t happen.

Look at Tony Blair, a middle east peace envoy - don`t laugh - who

as British P.M. took us to war with lraq on the strength of WMD that

could strike us within 45 minutes.

When in reality sometime later he moved into a 6 million home in

the centre of the target area. Not bad on 140k/yr.

These money people must think we`re stupid.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:53
  #1151 (permalink)  
 
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AA

How do you know that behind closed doors he hasn't pressed a stronger argument? With all due respect you don't.

Behind closed doors is the appropriate method for a subordinate to provide his or her's unvarnished opinion. He would never have the access to anyone above a janitor to help shape policy if he was bombastic. Should he even try, the focus is then on the personality conflict and the issue is lost in the noise. Followed quickly by his desire to retire to spend more time with the family.

Last edited by West Coast; 5th Sep 2013 at 00:54.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:54
  #1152 (permalink)  
 
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500N:

That's the way it should be, but in modern day Washington that's not the way it is. There are all too many who are so convinced of their own magnificence that they simply are not interested in hearing any opinion or information that does not agree with their pre-conceived notions. In fact in some cases they can't even conceive of how anyone could not agree with them. In other cases, they feel that since they're the smartest person in whatever room they're in, by definition there's no point in anyone else having any other views. And there're always those that feel it's their subordinates job to agree with them so there's no reason to consult with or explain to them.

Maybe Gen. Dempsey is just being honest.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 00:58
  #1153 (permalink)  
 
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500N

Thanks for the tip. Fixed.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:00
  #1154 (permalink)  
 
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I understand where you are coming from.

Respect has a lot to do with it and how you interact.

"And there're always those that feel it's their subordinates job to agree with them so there's no reason to consult with or explain to them."

I think it was Stormin' Norman who said in his book when he became
a Brig General, "once you become a Brig General, your sense of humour
improves markedly" (As in everyone laughs at your jokes !)
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:08
  #1155 (permalink)  
 
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I still think this is all a road to disaster,
It's ok Obama saying we need to do this to discourage terrorists using chemical weapons etc, but that begs the question, if in the future a suicide terrorist used the damn stuff say in Washington, then what, trace where he / she came from and then bomb that city / country?
The nutters in Tokyo that dispersed Sarin in the underground, what do you do there?
It's alright saying we will go after a Country to stop the proliferation, but how does that work when you have a couple of nutters and terrorists involved?

I watched Obama in Sweden saying the international credibility as well as America's and Congress's credibility is on the line, he looked like he was trying to convince himself.


..

Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Sep 2013 at 01:10.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:16
  #1156 (permalink)  
 
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West:

Should he even try, the focus is then on the personality conflict and the issue is lost in the noise. Followed quickly by his desire to retire to spend more time with the family.
We are actually agreeing here... But I see it as a problem that if he makes noise it is automatically seen as a personality conflict rather than what it truly is. That being a man who has devoted his life to war and the making of such telling a career, (albeit a very short career), politician who shuns the military that his ill advised "plans" are bull$hit. O'Bummer may be "Commander-in Chief" but in reality he's being a schoolyard bully with a Chicago gang backing him up and even the gang can see the Emperor has no clothes.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:19
  #1157 (permalink)  
 
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And someone like Obama needs MORE frank advice than most pollies
who have never served in the military.

Just my HO.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:28
  #1158 (permalink)  
 
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AA

Again, how do you know he hasn't in anything but clear language expressed his opinion about his opposition in private to the President and his leadership? He has in public, it would follow he was behind closed doors as well.

If the President says thanks for your input but shut up and give me targeting options, he gives him targeting options or he retires on the spot.

Falling in your sword is the only way forward. Anybody who has a boss understands you win some and you lose some. Granted the stakes are higher, but the fundamentals remain the same.

I don't like the President much, but he and other leaders should have the expectation that subordinates wil act in an expected manner. In addition to being the appropriate path, it's the one that offers the advantage that his counsel is considered.

Last edited by West Coast; 5th Sep 2013 at 01:30.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:33
  #1159 (permalink)  
 
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Trouble is the do what your told and don't question it attitude didn't work out well for 'itlers mob post war.

When you get to the status of 4 stars you would be a fool not to take onboard their comments and advice, after all a yes man is doing you no favours at all..




..

Last edited by NutLoose; 5th Sep 2013 at 01:36.
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Old 5th Sep 2013, 01:43
  #1160 (permalink)  
 
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The general contempt for international law here suggests a rather disturbing trend. One can only hope this attitude predominates only among jaded veterans and is not prevalent among those still serving, especially those with any sort of command responsibility.
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