Here it comes: Syria
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
HJ, I am sorry to say that what I read and saw of contemporary accounts accords more with your view than SASLess.
One thing that the 'good guys' hated was the bitter and cunning irregular warfare fought by the bad guys - digging pits, inserting poisoned and sharpened bamboo canes designed to spear the boot going in and ankle coming out.
The ingenuity of using a 105mm shell to lob a second 105mm shell up to 5 km.
OK, keeping prisoners in cages wasn't nice but they could not risk large WW2 style POW camps - look what happened when a US Buffalo Hunter mission found a camp.
Popular culture too, with a fairly amusing, if you weren't there, RT chatter between an F4 flight dropping a load of ordnance and the FACs low down.
And HJ has it right when they say the NVA were 'our' bad guys. We would have felt the same had Clinton sent US Peace Keepers into Northern Ireland.
One vet I met, an AF WO was ashamed to be an American when he returned from VN. He had returned expecting a joyous home-coming to find instead a Jane Fonda welcome instead. Many in the US were anti-war because of the body bags. Were the soldiers in VN heroic fighters or risk averse and resorting to massive fire-power?
One thing that the 'good guys' hated was the bitter and cunning irregular warfare fought by the bad guys - digging pits, inserting poisoned and sharpened bamboo canes designed to spear the boot going in and ankle coming out.
The ingenuity of using a 105mm shell to lob a second 105mm shell up to 5 km.
OK, keeping prisoners in cages wasn't nice but they could not risk large WW2 style POW camps - look what happened when a US Buffalo Hunter mission found a camp.
Popular culture too, with a fairly amusing, if you weren't there, RT chatter between an F4 flight dropping a load of ordnance and the FACs low down.
And HJ has it right when they say the NVA were 'our' bad guys. We would have felt the same had Clinton sent US Peace Keepers into Northern Ireland.
One vet I met, an AF WO was ashamed to be an American when he returned from VN. He had returned expecting a joyous home-coming to find instead a Jane Fonda welcome instead. Many in the US were anti-war because of the body bags. Were the soldiers in VN heroic fighters or risk averse and resorting to massive fire-power?
If Jane really understood the War, She/He/It would understand the great failure that Tet 1968 was for the North Vietnamese who fully expected the Southerners to rise up in concert with the NVA. The South did not....the NVA got their asses kicked proper!
Giap himself admits that.
In fact....had we pursued the enemy right back into his sanctuaries and homeland....the War would have ended right there.
We failed to capitalize on their miscalculation.
Old Walter stood there in Hue City wearing a Helmet and Flak Vest and told the American Public the War was lost despite the abject failure of the NVA.
Jane, I hate to burst your bubble, but it was not the individual soldier that lost the War....it was the senior leadership who lost it despite the performance of the Individual Soldier.
Play your word games...but the only person you are fooling is yourself.
I have been back to Vietnam several times and have travelled from Dien Bien Phu and along the Chinese Border through all the country down to the Delta. A more gracious and kind People one cannot meet anywhere. We have talked with our former enemies....in chance encounters all during our travels and have had not one bad experience.
Oddly, the common response is they harbor hatred of the French but not the American's. How would you explain that? Did we kill them nicely and the French did not? They beat the French and Us as well....so why the ambivalence?
I would gladly retire there if it were possible to do so...but family obligations prevent that currently. It is a beautiful country, filled with history, and is progressing well despite the War.
We get a better reception there than we do in a lot of other places around the World so we must not have done them too wrong while we were there.
But...you cling to your myths and bull****.....don't let facts and the truth get in your way.
PN,
Anyone that ever fought the NVA respect them as they were very good Soldiers. Depending which year of the War and where you were decided what you experienced. If you were dealing with local VC units or VC Units augmented with NVA troops.....or dealing with Main Force NVA units in Regiment or Division size, or NVA armored units, then the War could be altogether different.
Read up on the Aussies fight at Long Tan....something we commemorated quite recently.....that will give you an idea what Artillery and Air Strikes does to save small units from being over run by numerically superior enemy units.
You could serious discussions of the conduct of the War and see how Westmoreland embraced the notion of H and I Fires over the objections of his subordinate Artillery commanders.
The conduct of the War in Vietnam and that in Iraq have way too many parallels. They both also show similar failures to that in Afghanistan.
No War has ever been fought efficiently or without undue violence and mayhem. Just last night I watched a documentary about "Bloody Sunday" in Ireland. If you want to rehash old Wars and try to score cheap points and not have a serious discussion then not much need to keep pointing out the misconceptions you have.
There are some of you here that simply renew our faith that Colonel Blimp is alive and well....which is a shame really. Most that come here are bright enough to see the truth when they find it.
You and Jane are not amongst that group it would appear.
Giap himself admits that.
In fact....had we pursued the enemy right back into his sanctuaries and homeland....the War would have ended right there.
We failed to capitalize on their miscalculation.
Old Walter stood there in Hue City wearing a Helmet and Flak Vest and told the American Public the War was lost despite the abject failure of the NVA.
Jane, I hate to burst your bubble, but it was not the individual soldier that lost the War....it was the senior leadership who lost it despite the performance of the Individual Soldier.
Play your word games...but the only person you are fooling is yourself.
I have been back to Vietnam several times and have travelled from Dien Bien Phu and along the Chinese Border through all the country down to the Delta. A more gracious and kind People one cannot meet anywhere. We have talked with our former enemies....in chance encounters all during our travels and have had not one bad experience.
Oddly, the common response is they harbor hatred of the French but not the American's. How would you explain that? Did we kill them nicely and the French did not? They beat the French and Us as well....so why the ambivalence?
I would gladly retire there if it were possible to do so...but family obligations prevent that currently. It is a beautiful country, filled with history, and is progressing well despite the War.
We get a better reception there than we do in a lot of other places around the World so we must not have done them too wrong while we were there.
But...you cling to your myths and bull****.....don't let facts and the truth get in your way.
PN,
Anyone that ever fought the NVA respect them as they were very good Soldiers. Depending which year of the War and where you were decided what you experienced. If you were dealing with local VC units or VC Units augmented with NVA troops.....or dealing with Main Force NVA units in Regiment or Division size, or NVA armored units, then the War could be altogether different.
Read up on the Aussies fight at Long Tan....something we commemorated quite recently.....that will give you an idea what Artillery and Air Strikes does to save small units from being over run by numerically superior enemy units.
You could serious discussions of the conduct of the War and see how Westmoreland embraced the notion of H and I Fires over the objections of his subordinate Artillery commanders.
The conduct of the War in Vietnam and that in Iraq have way too many parallels. They both also show similar failures to that in Afghanistan.
No War has ever been fought efficiently or without undue violence and mayhem. Just last night I watched a documentary about "Bloody Sunday" in Ireland. If you want to rehash old Wars and try to score cheap points and not have a serious discussion then not much need to keep pointing out the misconceptions you have.
There are some of you here that simply renew our faith that Colonel Blimp is alive and well....which is a shame really. Most that come here are bright enough to see the truth when they find it.
You and Jane are not amongst that group it would appear.
Last edited by SASless; 1st Sep 2013 at 19:56.
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" they harbor hatred of the French"
I have heard that as well. Maybe a carry over from the Colonial days ?
I also know plenty of people who have gone back and met the enemy,
sometimes the exact people they fought such as at Long Tan and respect
all round between them from what you saw and heard.
I have heard that as well. Maybe a carry over from the Colonial days ?
I also know plenty of people who have gone back and met the enemy,
sometimes the exact people they fought such as at Long Tan and respect
all round between them from what you saw and heard.
Last edited by SASless; 1st Sep 2013 at 20:18.
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Well, there you have it: "scared, barely educated kids." Yes, I guess Jane would have had "to have been there," to know how incorrect that notion is!
Well, let's not confuse HJ with facts, while she's either rolling on the floor or else searching for a cuddle. Heck, perhaps both at the same time!
Well, let's not confuse HJ with facts, while she's either rolling on the floor or else searching for a cuddle. Heck, perhaps both at the same time!
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No, chuks, I'm playing with my numb nipples, now leave me alone!
You want me babe, I know you do.
SASless,
Mommy said I can talk to you once more if you promise not to say 'you had to be there'. It makes me giggle uncontrollably and is bad for my surgically enhanced bosom.
Errr... where to start? Tet? OK. Yes, Tet.
That was about tweaking the American tail, but it was also about removing from circulation a significant percentage of the southern communist party - the VC - who you will know were not well thought of by those in the north. NVA regulars were hardly involved. It was a VC led series of actions. You do know the difference, right?
To put it simplistically, the northerners hung the southerners out to dry. If it worked, the north would take advantage and roll on down. If it didn't, a shock for the Yankees combined with the removal of a potential headache for the north. As you know, the VC were pretty much decimated, to be replaced by a northern trained cadre over the next few years. Problem solved.
Remember, the north was playing the long game. You weren't. When the war ended there was no communist party in the south to deal with, just well trained northerners. Smart, huh?
What the hell were you doing at DBP? That wasn't your war.
Ah, at the Chinese border too? Perhaps seeing where the Chinese (mis)adventure was played out? Another bloody nose for an invader.
As for the Vietnamese being nice to you... well, they are a polite people who accept the vagaries of life with a smile. And you're an old man now. No reason to harbour a grudge. The elderly are respected in Asia.
I assure you they tell the French that they like them and that it's the Americans who were bad. It's just a game. Offend no-one, at least not when they're standing in front of you.
True story. About five years ago I was at My Son 'cos I have a passing interest in Chiem Thanh architecture. I come across this western fellow crying like a baby next to an area still roped off because it's yet to be cleared. Long story short, it turns out he was one of the guys who dropped ordnance on this place when it was used by the VC, and now he returns, sees it's beautiful and feels ashamed.
A small crowd of local tourists has gathered. They ask what's wrong and I translate. Much sympathy and touching occurs. Western guy goes away thanking everyone. After he's gone, one guy turns to the other and says 'Weak bast*rds the Americans', and the crowd mumbles its agreement.
The point is, the Vietnamese don't care about you, or the Chinese or the Russians or Communism or Capitalism or even the damn war. It's past. Gone. History. All they care about is themselves. And, on a good day, their family. And that's it.
So swim around in angst and misery all you wish. View your world through 45 year old glasses. Continue to blame the wrong people. Fail to learn the lessons - though, to be fair, you seem to have learnt some.
I've never really known where I stand on this issue. Do I admire the Americans who come back? Do I pity them? I still don't have an answer. Probably never will.
One thing I suspect we agree on. When I first arrived in VN back in the 1990's someone told me that 'You may leave Viet Nam, but Viet Nam will never leave you' I think it's a quote from a Graham Greene novel but have never bothered to check. Anyway, I thought it was utter nonsense, but they were right. Viet Nam has my heart and, I suspect, has seen the best of me. Yet it's not my home. I wish it were.
At different times we've both flown in the same sky. I think that will have to do.
With respect and with kind regards,
Jane.
Yes mommy, the bad man is going away now...
You want me babe, I know you do.
SASless,
Mommy said I can talk to you once more if you promise not to say 'you had to be there'. It makes me giggle uncontrollably and is bad for my surgically enhanced bosom.
Errr... where to start? Tet? OK. Yes, Tet.
That was about tweaking the American tail, but it was also about removing from circulation a significant percentage of the southern communist party - the VC - who you will know were not well thought of by those in the north. NVA regulars were hardly involved. It was a VC led series of actions. You do know the difference, right?
To put it simplistically, the northerners hung the southerners out to dry. If it worked, the north would take advantage and roll on down. If it didn't, a shock for the Yankees combined with the removal of a potential headache for the north. As you know, the VC were pretty much decimated, to be replaced by a northern trained cadre over the next few years. Problem solved.
Remember, the north was playing the long game. You weren't. When the war ended there was no communist party in the south to deal with, just well trained northerners. Smart, huh?
What the hell were you doing at DBP? That wasn't your war.
Ah, at the Chinese border too? Perhaps seeing where the Chinese (mis)adventure was played out? Another bloody nose for an invader.
As for the Vietnamese being nice to you... well, they are a polite people who accept the vagaries of life with a smile. And you're an old man now. No reason to harbour a grudge. The elderly are respected in Asia.
I assure you they tell the French that they like them and that it's the Americans who were bad. It's just a game. Offend no-one, at least not when they're standing in front of you.
True story. About five years ago I was at My Son 'cos I have a passing interest in Chiem Thanh architecture. I come across this western fellow crying like a baby next to an area still roped off because it's yet to be cleared. Long story short, it turns out he was one of the guys who dropped ordnance on this place when it was used by the VC, and now he returns, sees it's beautiful and feels ashamed.
A small crowd of local tourists has gathered. They ask what's wrong and I translate. Much sympathy and touching occurs. Western guy goes away thanking everyone. After he's gone, one guy turns to the other and says 'Weak bast*rds the Americans', and the crowd mumbles its agreement.
The point is, the Vietnamese don't care about you, or the Chinese or the Russians or Communism or Capitalism or even the damn war. It's past. Gone. History. All they care about is themselves. And, on a good day, their family. And that's it.
So swim around in angst and misery all you wish. View your world through 45 year old glasses. Continue to blame the wrong people. Fail to learn the lessons - though, to be fair, you seem to have learnt some.
I've never really known where I stand on this issue. Do I admire the Americans who come back? Do I pity them? I still don't have an answer. Probably never will.
One thing I suspect we agree on. When I first arrived in VN back in the 1990's someone told me that 'You may leave Viet Nam, but Viet Nam will never leave you' I think it's a quote from a Graham Greene novel but have never bothered to check. Anyway, I thought it was utter nonsense, but they were right. Viet Nam has my heart and, I suspect, has seen the best of me. Yet it's not my home. I wish it were.
At different times we've both flown in the same sky. I think that will have to do.
With respect and with kind regards,
Jane.
Yes mommy, the bad man is going away now...
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As Captain Blackadder said,
Thank fcuk for the ignore option, Baldrick. Over the top laddie, and onwards into history......
Nope you just don't get it hj, you never will.
Thank fcuk for the ignore option, Baldrick. Over the top laddie, and onwards into history......
Nope you just don't get it hj, you never will.
Jane failed math it appears....and must be reading Communist Party Talking Points.
He/She/It skips right over the 70,000 NVA Troops involved in that soiree back in 68.
Ten PAVN Battalions and Six Battalions of VC attacked Hue City by itself.
The end result of the Tet 68 Offensive......
A scenic place called Khe Shanh took place at about the same time and that was no small bit of fun.
If Jane put down the Daily Worker and read Summers, Sorley, McMaster the light might come on.
But....too true about the Ignore feature.....there is a seat waiting for HJ in the Peanut Gallery.
One more fanciful yarn like those of today and he will be out of here like a Rat from an Acquaduct!
It is plain he has been indoctrinated by the Communist Propagandists and thus there is no hope in discussing anything with him.
He/She/It skips right over the 70,000 NVA Troops involved in that soiree back in 68.
Ten PAVN Battalions and Six Battalions of VC attacked Hue City by itself.
The end result of the Tet 68 Offensive......
The Tet Offensive was a tactical defeat for the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese forces. The Tet Offensive is widely viewed as a turning point in the war despite the high cost to the communists (approximately 32,000 killed and about 5,800 captured) for what appeared at the time to be small gains.
A scenic place called Khe Shanh took place at about the same time and that was no small bit of fun.
If Jane put down the Daily Worker and read Summers, Sorley, McMaster the light might come on.
But....too true about the Ignore feature.....there is a seat waiting for HJ in the Peanut Gallery.
One more fanciful yarn like those of today and he will be out of here like a Rat from an Acquaduct!
It is plain he has been indoctrinated by the Communist Propagandists and thus there is no hope in discussing anything with him.
Last edited by SASless; 1st Sep 2013 at 21:32.
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OMG, it's like a never ending headache...
Khe Sanh (it's Khe Sanh, not Khe Shanh) was NOT the Tet offensive. You were talking about the Tet offensive, right?
I know 'you had to be there'.
Seriously, are you following any of this? I mean, I'm trying my very best to structure things in a logical manner for you. An a leads to b leads to c kinda thing. Yet you run off at tangents.
Go for the ignore list. It's the kindest option for us both.
Edit:
Oh my goodness, you're actually quoting from CIA Dept of Defence files, which were themselves compiled from papers produced in the field in '68? No chance of bias there then...
glad rag,
If you've something to contribute, feel free. If you want to add me to an ignore list, please do. Just don't feel obligated to tell me about it.
Khe Sanh (it's Khe Sanh, not Khe Shanh) was NOT the Tet offensive. You were talking about the Tet offensive, right?
I know 'you had to be there'.
Seriously, are you following any of this? I mean, I'm trying my very best to structure things in a logical manner for you. An a leads to b leads to c kinda thing. Yet you run off at tangents.
Go for the ignore list. It's the kindest option for us both.
Edit:
Oh my goodness, you're actually quoting from CIA Dept of Defence files, which were themselves compiled from papers produced in the field in '68? No chance of bias there then...
glad rag,
If you've something to contribute, feel free. If you want to add me to an ignore list, please do. Just don't feel obligated to tell me about it.
Last edited by hanoijane; 1st Sep 2013 at 22:01.
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No Pontius, wasn't thinking of provision of aircraft and won't mention the TSR2 otherwise pr00n will be along to give us a lecture!
I was thinking more about Aden, giving the Russians the warm water port they so desperately desired, remember, the first people into Aden after the British left were the STASI, who then presided over a bloodbath of biblical proportions, (that somehow didn't get fully reported in the UK), and prepared the way for the arrival of the Russian navy, equally badly reported in the UK. Additionally it was Wilson who forbade the use of the main armament on the Saladin armoured car in Aden on the day that twenty one British soldiers were killed. If you pick through the history of that time there are, sadly, many incidents where you would be forgiven for wondering just who was giving the orders.
I was thinking more about Aden, giving the Russians the warm water port they so desperately desired, remember, the first people into Aden after the British left were the STASI, who then presided over a bloodbath of biblical proportions, (that somehow didn't get fully reported in the UK), and prepared the way for the arrival of the Russian navy, equally badly reported in the UK. Additionally it was Wilson who forbade the use of the main armament on the Saladin armoured car in Aden on the day that twenty one British soldiers were killed. If you pick through the history of that time there are, sadly, many incidents where you would be forgiven for wondering just who was giving the orders.
HJ....tis off to the Peanut Gallery....Bon Voyage!
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A hangover cure, anyone?
When I was young and stupid, we held the best hangover cure to be yet more alcohol. That did work, sort of....
So here we are, chewing the rag over a long-lost war, Viet Nam, when the only argument is about how or why we lost, not over the fact that, yes, we did lose, in that the Republic of Viet Nam, our chosen ally, finally was conquered and ceased to exist.
Would language lessons have helped us then? Perhaps, but it's not quite like high school Spanish to learn, Vietnamese, is it? Arabic is another tough one: what's Arabic for "Hände hoch! Stehen bleiben!" and how should one remember that under the stress of wondering who wearing what is under that burkha?
General Sherman may never have said, in so many words, that "War is hell," but he did state that "War is cruelty and you cannot refine it." One of our most popular military correspondents, Ernie Pyle, to read his stuff now, one gets the idea that some engagements consisted of handing out Hershey Bars to orphans instead of killing lots and lots of Germans and perhaps a few civilians as well. If that isn't an attempt to refine the cruelty of war, then what is it? Those were simpler times, though, when we were shielded from truth by distance and censorship. Today, thanks in part to one little dweeb currently basking in his fifteen minutes of fame, we know far too much about truth, and that is making it very, very awkward to go to war, even if it may seem that some folks really do need killing.
In there somewhere must also be the notion that in war, yes Jane, one uses "disproportionate force." That is just common sense, otherwise one should expect the policeman to drop his gun and pull a knife to fight someone armed with same.
In the time of the Viet Nam War, our indigenous chuckle-heads made the NLF and the NVA out to be the good guys, and the American military and our allies to be the bad guys, hence the original Hanoi Jane rooting for "them against us." Okay, there was the odd Communist massacre, as at Hue, brutal, carefully planned so wide-ranging, and done in cold blood, but there was nothing that could not be either brushed aside by comparisons with My Lai, or else politely ignored or contradicted.
Now, though, it's pretty hard to root for folks who want to see women killed for riding bicycles and such-like, (the shameless hussies)! I guess this is why we are hanging back now from taking that traditional hangover cure for defeat, plunging into yet another foreign adventure, while even the Janes do not seem to be able to figure out who to root for. Of course they know to protest against whatever it is we shall do, as soon as we figure out what that is. If we lob a few Tomahawks into Bashir's bedroom then that is unprovoked aggression using disproportionate force, but if we do nothing then that shall be a failure to support the brave fighters for Syrian freedom (and their right to keep women out of school and off bicycles).
Should we have a whip-round to buy Hanoi Jane a one-way ticket to Damascus, to do some anti-war, pro-peace demonstrating? I am sure there are photo ops a-plenty there, sat in the back of a "technical" on a 37-mm. antiaircraft gun. Why, yes, there she is, on You-Tube, grinning, gurning, waving happily at the camera in the Apache... but then the picture blossoms white as the soundtrack erupts in an argument about who authorized the use of a Hellfire on such a low-value target. Yep, "disproportionate force" once again, as if to say that we shall never learn.
So here we are, chewing the rag over a long-lost war, Viet Nam, when the only argument is about how or why we lost, not over the fact that, yes, we did lose, in that the Republic of Viet Nam, our chosen ally, finally was conquered and ceased to exist.
Would language lessons have helped us then? Perhaps, but it's not quite like high school Spanish to learn, Vietnamese, is it? Arabic is another tough one: what's Arabic for "Hände hoch! Stehen bleiben!" and how should one remember that under the stress of wondering who wearing what is under that burkha?
General Sherman may never have said, in so many words, that "War is hell," but he did state that "War is cruelty and you cannot refine it." One of our most popular military correspondents, Ernie Pyle, to read his stuff now, one gets the idea that some engagements consisted of handing out Hershey Bars to orphans instead of killing lots and lots of Germans and perhaps a few civilians as well. If that isn't an attempt to refine the cruelty of war, then what is it? Those were simpler times, though, when we were shielded from truth by distance and censorship. Today, thanks in part to one little dweeb currently basking in his fifteen minutes of fame, we know far too much about truth, and that is making it very, very awkward to go to war, even if it may seem that some folks really do need killing.
In there somewhere must also be the notion that in war, yes Jane, one uses "disproportionate force." That is just common sense, otherwise one should expect the policeman to drop his gun and pull a knife to fight someone armed with same.
In the time of the Viet Nam War, our indigenous chuckle-heads made the NLF and the NVA out to be the good guys, and the American military and our allies to be the bad guys, hence the original Hanoi Jane rooting for "them against us." Okay, there was the odd Communist massacre, as at Hue, brutal, carefully planned so wide-ranging, and done in cold blood, but there was nothing that could not be either brushed aside by comparisons with My Lai, or else politely ignored or contradicted.
Now, though, it's pretty hard to root for folks who want to see women killed for riding bicycles and such-like, (the shameless hussies)! I guess this is why we are hanging back now from taking that traditional hangover cure for defeat, plunging into yet another foreign adventure, while even the Janes do not seem to be able to figure out who to root for. Of course they know to protest against whatever it is we shall do, as soon as we figure out what that is. If we lob a few Tomahawks into Bashir's bedroom then that is unprovoked aggression using disproportionate force, but if we do nothing then that shall be a failure to support the brave fighters for Syrian freedom (and their right to keep women out of school and off bicycles).
Should we have a whip-round to buy Hanoi Jane a one-way ticket to Damascus, to do some anti-war, pro-peace demonstrating? I am sure there are photo ops a-plenty there, sat in the back of a "technical" on a 37-mm. antiaircraft gun. Why, yes, there she is, on You-Tube, grinning, gurning, waving happily at the camera in the Apache... but then the picture blossoms white as the soundtrack erupts in an argument about who authorized the use of a Hellfire on such a low-value target. Yep, "disproportionate force" once again, as if to say that we shall never learn.
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" When I was young and stupid, we held the best hangover cure to be yet more alcohol. That did work, sort of...."
+ 1
Agree, then after a couple of drinks to get rid of the hang over,
add some food and water - water in copious amounts
+ 1
Agree, then after a couple of drinks to get rid of the hang over,
add some food and water - water in copious amounts
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Parabellum thanks, didn't know about the Saladin. Agree we pulled out of Aden but was it only a part of the East of Suez bit of simply it became an unsustainable drain?
We deployed through Aden out bound and 3 months later, when we were recalled by Wilson, now Prime Minister, we planned to return that way too.
Scant hours before we departed Malaysia we were ordered to route Bahrain, Akrotiri routing via Iran and Turkey.
I later saw papers urging Wilson to stay east of Suez as we could do things in the region that the US could not. We had been recalled as we were weakening our contribution to NATO.
Wilson really wanted to retain the Singapore base and as you will recall it we didn't really leave east of Suez until 1974.
We deployed through Aden out bound and 3 months later, when we were recalled by Wilson, now Prime Minister, we planned to return that way too.
Scant hours before we departed Malaysia we were ordered to route Bahrain, Akrotiri routing via Iran and Turkey.
I later saw papers urging Wilson to stay east of Suez as we could do things in the region that the US could not. We had been recalled as we were weakening our contribution to NATO.
Wilson really wanted to retain the Singapore base and as you will recall it we didn't really leave east of Suez until 1974.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CGB, IIRC the RN retained a number of married quarters at Sembawang throughout.
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chuks, honey,
You silly sausage! Technicals are so 1980's. No-one with any style would be seen on one now! Today's must-have accessory is an Igla. The colour co-ordinates so well with my new Diesel jeans!
I fully support the right, if things get really bad, for the citizens of a country to kill each other if they wish. To fight for their own personal versions of freedom, be that to ride a bike or to stop people riding bikes.
War is simply a disagreement gone physical, usually on a national or international scale. And it only ends when one side kills sufficient numbers of the other to ensure they lose interest in continuing the disagreement. Now, with Totaler Krieg, Kürzester Krieg being the flavour of the day, everyone gets to play, even those without the means to defend themselves.
So is getting involved as a third party the smart option? Possibly, if you choose the 'right' side or if you have something to gain down the road if they win. But you shouldn't pretend you're doing it to 'stop the killing' 'cos, by golly, the only way you're going to do that is by helping to kill lots and lots of the other side.
If the UK, the USA, Russia or whoever really feel they have something to gain in Syria (and I suspect they do) then sure, wander along and choose a side. You can employ 'targeted warfare' with 'minimum collateral damage'. I'm sure it'll help lots. But remember, all you're doing is killing people and scaring the remainder into submission. You aren't destroying ideas, concepts, philosophies. And those are your real enemies.
One thing's for sure. The values espoused by both sides in this particular conflict will live beyond the eventual outcome, whatever it is. And you'll have to do this all over again, somewhere else, until you discover a more permanent way of solving this particular disagreement.
Enjoy your war :-)
You silly sausage! Technicals are so 1980's. No-one with any style would be seen on one now! Today's must-have accessory is an Igla. The colour co-ordinates so well with my new Diesel jeans!
I fully support the right, if things get really bad, for the citizens of a country to kill each other if they wish. To fight for their own personal versions of freedom, be that to ride a bike or to stop people riding bikes.
War is simply a disagreement gone physical, usually on a national or international scale. And it only ends when one side kills sufficient numbers of the other to ensure they lose interest in continuing the disagreement. Now, with Totaler Krieg, Kürzester Krieg being the flavour of the day, everyone gets to play, even those without the means to defend themselves.
So is getting involved as a third party the smart option? Possibly, if you choose the 'right' side or if you have something to gain down the road if they win. But you shouldn't pretend you're doing it to 'stop the killing' 'cos, by golly, the only way you're going to do that is by helping to kill lots and lots of the other side.
If the UK, the USA, Russia or whoever really feel they have something to gain in Syria (and I suspect they do) then sure, wander along and choose a side. You can employ 'targeted warfare' with 'minimum collateral damage'. I'm sure it'll help lots. But remember, all you're doing is killing people and scaring the remainder into submission. You aren't destroying ideas, concepts, philosophies. And those are your real enemies.
One thing's for sure. The values espoused by both sides in this particular conflict will live beyond the eventual outcome, whatever it is. And you'll have to do this all over again, somewhere else, until you discover a more permanent way of solving this particular disagreement.
Enjoy your war :-)
Last edited by hanoijane; 2nd Sep 2013 at 08:12. Reason: to correct some shockingly bad grammar