If Scotland Declares UDI..........

[TomJoad]

But not so much in the national conscious as such I bet; so again will it really matter, I think not. In this day an age why not offer it up for commercial sponsorship.


ok BP, BAE you get the idea . Same type of thing as is being down by teh Bloodhound team . Forgotten how to post pictures so use your imagination - circle - white, red with company logo

[Courtney Mil]

I hope the last bit there was a joke, but as for national conscious, I would guess it's seen as a symbol of the UK. Let's just hope it remains that way and that all our collective (here, I mean) speculation and banter is about something that never happens.

[TomJoad]

Err no i was being serious actually! Maybe its an age thing! Anyway i'm sure if you did a poll of the man in the street his national consciousness would no more associate the roundel with the RAF than he would take it as a national symbol. Tell you what I'll test on the schoolies tomorrow.

[Courtney Mil]

Fair enough. I'd be very surprised it you showed a roundel to anyone in the UK that they's not say "RAF". I'll be interested in your straw poll.

[G-F0RC3]

Do I take it that means nobody knows the answer...?

Not me.

One reason why voting should be compulsory!!

I used to think this but now I'm not so sure. Perhaps the right to vote is as important as the right to decide not to. Free will and such? I'm genuinely on the fence with that one.

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by Always Up

At the beginning of time God was discussing the creation of the world with the Angel Gabriel. Leaning back in His golden throne, He told him of His plans for Scotland.

"Gabriel," said God, "I am going to give Scotland towering mountains and magnificent glens resplendent with purple heather. Red deer will roam the countryside, golden eagles will circle in the skies, salmon will leap in the crystal clear rivers and lochs, and the surrounding seas will team with fish. Agriculture will flourish and there will be a glorious coming together of water with barley to be known as whisky. Coal, oil, gas - all will be there. The Scots will be intelligent, innovative, industrious and......."

"Wait a minute!" interrupted Gabriel. "Are you not being just a wee bit too generous to these Scots?"

But the Almighty replied, "Ah, but here is the sad part - I haven't told you yet who their neighbours will be!"

Always - very funny, nearly wet myself - haven't seen that before Oh and as a settler here myself i must agree the Scots are far more chilled, down to earth and hospitable than most in the UK. But watch out if you put on any airs and graces they don't give a hoot for rank or position " a man's a man for all that" etc. The UK would certainly be the poorer if Scotland left in more ways than it would currently ken!

[alwayslookingup]

Article 1, Treaty of Union 1707 provides;-

I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England,shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdom be such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

(my emphasis). So it looks like it'll be Aunty Betty's choice as to what features on the roundels, though sharp eyed will notice it mentions nothing about in the air

[TomJoad]

Originally Posted by alwayslookingup

Article 1, Treaty of Union 1707 provides;-

I. That the Two Kingdoms of Scotland and England,shall upon the 1st May next ensuing the date hereof, and forever after, be United into One Kingdom by the Name of GREAT BRITAIN: And that the Ensigns Armorial of the said United Kingdombe such as Her Majesty shall think fit, and used in all Flags, Banners, Standards and Ensigns both at Sea and Land.

(my emphasis). So it looks like it'll be Aunty Betty's choice as to what features on the roundels, though sharp eyed will notice it mentions nothing about in the air

Lol look's like HM has been usurped by a quaint notion of democracy - maybe she hasn't been told that it's the voter who decides on what the
happy ever after looks like . But ok we will let her decide on the roundel.

[Courtney Mil]

Hopefully it won't come to that, Tom.

[TomJoad]

Almost certain it won't wrt the independence vote but I'm equally certain that the current political/constitutional framework of the UK will be subject to significant change following the referendum. Scotland needs greater autonomy and to be under less influence from the muppets in westminster. I'd go further to say that rest of the UK (North of England in particular) needs the change as well. The dominance of London and the south of England (concentration of wealth and influence) is stiffling. Scotland will ultimately get independence, ironically perhaps, within the UK by changing the UK itself - once again, as much as you may not like to acknowledge it, it is the Scots that will take the lead in shaping what we call the UK. I see a level of maturity and intellect here in their political debate that is missing from Westminster. Its not moribund by holding on to past glories or trying to be a big player, its more forward looking - its hungry for renewal and change. Like it or not they will reshape the UK.

Anyway back to the OP, I still think sponsorship is sensible. As suggested I've set up a survey monkey type poll to put to the bairns tomorrow (11 - 18 years), I'll keep you posted on the results.

[Roland Pulfrew]

What a load of bile this is, Courtney you must be particularly well balanced with the size of those chips you are carrying mate. A typical whinging pom. Haven't followed the independence thing for a while but now of the mind to say Scotland go for it - high time you dropped the baggage of these outdated little Englanders. Visited the UK lots over the past years and always found the celtic nations to be by far the more hospitable - England has no real sense of itself. So go for it Scotland let the whingers down south carry themselves.

My God what a load of bile this is, Always up, you must be particularly well balanced with the size of those chips you are carrying mate. Not a bad start on PPRuNe for an abo. So an uninformed Aussie, I'm guessing with some sort of Celtic heritage, thinks the Scots should "go for it", that the "England" has no sense of itself and is inhospitable; with an attitude like yours I'm not surprised.

I'd go further to say that rest of the UK (North of England in particular) needs the change as well. The dominance of London and the south of England (concentration of wealth and influence) is stiffling.

In case you hadn't noticed, the NE voted, by a significant margin, AGAINST Two-Jags Prescott's plans for regional devolution.

[Old RN]

As Great Britain is a union, should there not be a vote south of the boarder to see if the English and Welsh want to stay connected to Scotland? The result could be an English vote to disolve the union and a Scottish vote not to!

[G-F0RC3]

As Great Britain is a union, should there not be a vote south of the boarder to see if the English and Welsh want to stay connected to Scotland? The result could be an English vote to disolve the union and a Scottish vote not to!

This would only happen if the people of England, Wales (and - ironically - Scotland) elect a Westminster government that wants to hold a referendum on it. So, essentially the Scots would be part of electing a government which wants to dissolve a Union with the Scots - which seems strange. But I think what you're getting at is; What if the people of England want to dissolve the Union themselves?. As a Scot, I think the English are well within their rights to do that if that's what they think is in their best interests.

But we have to be careful here. There has been a lot of mud slinging lately. We need to ensure that whatever decisions we come to are not as a consequence of lowering the debate to petty playground insults and historical grievances. A decision to dissolve the Union is a big one; and should be made (or not made) with a level-head. Contrary to popular belief, the Scots don't hate the English. We have been friends and neighbours for a very long time now, and I genuinely don't think that would change if Scotland became independent. I almost get the impression that the English think the Scots think they are better than the English, and so look to down the Scots as some sort of retaliation for this perceived arrogance; and even suggest that they might force Independence upon us by voting for it themselves (to teach us a lesson, if you will). But this is quite unhelpful to all concerned. Clearly Scotland can be independent, and probably quite successfully. The real argument is; should we become independent?

[Heathrow Harry]

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door. People don't think it will impact them at all TBH

I think that over the last 30-40 years the two countries have become quite different places - and relatively few English people go to Scotland these days

[sisemen]

Take no notice of Always Up. The expats living down on the flats of Perth are truly a weird lot - they're more Jockanese than the tartan mob themselves. He's probably behind the secession movement in West Australia as well.

[melmothtw]

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door. People don't think it will impact them at all TBH

You say that, but the evidence from this forum at least is that it's mainly those "south of the border" who seem to be working themselves up into a larther at the prospect of Scottish independence.

[OutlawPete]

Originally Posted by Heathrow Harry

Most everyone I know south of the border just shrugs their shoulders about the Union - it has no value anymore and if the Scots want to go they'd be happy to show them the door.

HH, I genuinely hope this isn't the case and certainly haven't met anyone from south of the border who shares this attitude. Sure I've been on the receiving end of the banter but have always seen it as just that and to be fair, have given as good back.

So, is there an intrinsic belief that England would be better off without Scotland from south of the border?


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[langleybaston]

I for one am totally indifferent but I would in any case like an English Parliament.

[MFC_Fly]

OutlawPete, just ignore HH, he has the habit of posting negatively on almost everything on here. IMHO he is just a troll

[betty swallox]

Heathrow Harry...
What a kn*b!!!!
I'm a Scot, so I'll pass on your sentiments to my ENGLISH wife!!!

Really...did you finish school yet?!