New Medal for Drone Pilots
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It amazes me you can get a medal in the US military for being a POW.
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Sure - if you kill someone (anyone - a 'bin Laden', some children, some adults, doesn't matter) without judicial process, and then pull an excuse out of your ass, why you do not need a judicial process (as Obama administration did), well, that alone qualifies as a war crime - USA did not declare war on Yemen or Pakistan. And we do not even have to go into double tap strikes, ratio of killed civilian vs 'terrorist', breach of international law by killing citizens of another country in their own country etc.
And last: why is everyone quiet when you ask them, what will happen when other countries will have their own definition of what a terrorist is and will refer to the same 'logic' as USA?
And last: why is everyone quiet when you ask them, what will happen when other countries will have their own definition of what a terrorist is and will refer to the same 'logic' as USA?
Last edited by cowhorse; 19th Feb 2013 at 15:12.
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If I was getting bummed constantly a medal wouldn't go amiss...
On a more serious note, during a pre-deployment CAC lecture before popping of to some sandy place I remember the scary guy from Hereford doing the talking mentioning that after capture there is the possibility we could be raped, to which a couple of lads at the back chuckled. "Don't know why you lads are laughing" he said, " the Iraqis are more likely to rape you than females...."
Chuckling stopped....
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I just thought it Ironic, the USA would give you a Medal, one could imagine the UK response, sitting in a POW camp you get a Telegram from the MOD
Please advise time of capture, pay and allowances stopped.... Stop.
Please advise time of capture, pay and allowances stopped.... Stop.
Please advise time of capture, pay and allowances stopped.... Stop.
Stop right there, NutLoose! Whilst very sadly, and to my mind very wrongly, Merchant Navy prisoners were indeed treated in this way, with effect from the date of their capture, but I suspect a little research will confirm that Service POWs were paid on their return, albeit less a deduction for board and lodging whilst captive.
Jack
Stop right there, NutLoose! Whilst very sadly, and to my mind very wrongly, Merchant Navy prisoners were indeed treated in this way, with effect from the date of their capture, but I suspect a little research will confirm that Service POWs were paid on their return, albeit less a deduction for board and lodging whilst captive.
Jack
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Why? If taken prisoner your pay and allowances are stopped until you are released when it is then paid to you, fine, but that does not put food on the table for the wife and say two kiddies at home or service the mortgage, it's alright then backdating their wages, but one wonders about the mortgage interest etc that has built up in the meantime, along with interest on loans etc, the fact appears to be if you become a POW In the UK, it can seriously damage your assets and credit rating..
At least the USA continues to pay their troops while they are POW's, odd we do not do similar for those known to be prisoners.
At least the USA continues to pay their troops while they are POW's, odd we do not do similar for those known to be prisoners.
Last edited by NutLoose; 20th Feb 2013 at 14:37.
Some views from Veterans of Foreign Wars:
VFW Wants New Medal Ranked Lower | Military.com plus a quote from ARRSE:
You Couldn't Make It Up
It would appear that our US colleagues have decided to reward the contributions of drones to modern conflict by awarding their operators a new type of medal. It can surely only be a matter of time before the RAF follow suit.
Jack
VFW Wants New Medal Ranked Lower | Military.com plus a quote from ARRSE:
You Couldn't Make It Up
It would appear that our US colleagues have decided to reward the contributions of drones to modern conflict by awarding their operators a new type of medal. It can surely only be a matter of time before the RAF follow suit.
Jack
Um. Really?
Yes, really.
Dear oh double dear! Educational standards in the light blue must have dropped pretty markedly - I have to wonder what part of "plus a quote from ARSSE ," complete with a colon leading into it, doesn't StopStart understand.
For the avoidance of doubt, and having followed this thread from the start, I was merely quoting the two links which I received by email this forenoon.
The title is something of a give away too...
So is Post No 28 .....
Jack
Yes, really.
Dear oh double dear! Educational standards in the light blue must have dropped pretty markedly - I have to wonder what part of "plus a quote from ARSSE ," complete with a colon leading into it, doesn't StopStart understand.
For the avoidance of doubt, and having followed this thread from the start, I was merely quoting the two links which I received by email this forenoon.
The title is something of a give away too...
So is Post No 28 .....
Jack
Champagne anyone...?
Touché, bsb, touché 
Thanks for the educational pointers UJ. No longer "light blue" though.
In future perhaps you could try using the quote function so quotes are little more obvious?
Referring to me in the third person is a little pantomime-esque though.
He's behind you
Anyway, enough of this badinage, back to the cut and thrust of Pprune dribble.
Thanks for the educational pointers UJ. No longer "light blue" though.
In future perhaps you could try using the quote function so quotes are little more obvious?
Referring to me in the third person is a little pantomime-esque though.
He's behind you
Anyway, enough of this badinage, back to the cut and thrust of Pprune dribble.
Last edited by StopStart; 21st Feb 2013 at 21:37.
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Drone Pilots Are Found to Get Stress Disorders Much as Those in Combat Do
Full article: New York Times
Full article: New York Times
In the first study of its kind, researchers with the Defense Department have found that pilots of drone aircraft experience mental health problems like depression, anxiety and post-traumatic stress at the same rate as pilots of manned aircraft who are deployed to Iraq or Afghanistan.
The study affirms a growing body of research finding health hazards even for those piloting machines from bases far from actual combat zones.
“Though it might be thousands of miles from the battlefield, this work still involves tough stressors and has tough consequences for those crews,” said Peter W. Singer, a scholar at the Brookings Institution who has written extensively about drones. He was not involved in the new research.
That study, by the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center, which analyzes health trends among military personnel, did not try to explain the sources of mental health problems among drone pilots.
But Air Force officials and independent experts have suggested several potential causes, among them witnessing combat violence on live video feeds, working in isolation or under inflexible shift hours, juggling the simultaneous demands of home life with combat operations and dealing with intense stress because of crew shortages.
“Remotely piloted aircraft pilots may stare at the same piece of ground for days,” said Jean Lin Otto, an epidemiologist who was a co-author of the study. “They witness the carnage. Manned aircraft pilots don’t do that. They get out of there as soon as possible.”
The study affirms a growing body of research finding health hazards even for those piloting machines from bases far from actual combat zones.
“Though it might be thousands of miles from the battlefield, this work still involves tough stressors and has tough consequences for those crews,” said Peter W. Singer, a scholar at the Brookings Institution who has written extensively about drones. He was not involved in the new research.
That study, by the Armed Forces Health Surveillance Center, which analyzes health trends among military personnel, did not try to explain the sources of mental health problems among drone pilots.
But Air Force officials and independent experts have suggested several potential causes, among them witnessing combat violence on live video feeds, working in isolation or under inflexible shift hours, juggling the simultaneous demands of home life with combat operations and dealing with intense stress because of crew shortages.
“Remotely piloted aircraft pilots may stare at the same piece of ground for days,” said Jean Lin Otto, an epidemiologist who was a co-author of the study. “They witness the carnage. Manned aircraft pilots don’t do that. They get out of there as soon as possible.”
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Mental bravery or physical bravery?
I don't know how I come down on this argument... I don't feel like I deserve an opinion, or a voice... I'm not a veteran, merely the daughter and sister of some. But, I do think, if my dad were alive today, he might ask the question that other veterans are asking... good questions:
So, what exactly defines courage? what defines sacrifice?
Is the possibility of damage to the mind equal to the damage to the body?
I think we do have to answer the question this soldier asks,
"what about that guy that 'doesn't take the shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids." ?
Personally, I don't have a point of reference for defining bravery in battle. I wonder how much courage it takes to sacrifice yourself to save another human being. I've heard people who have been declared "heros" and/or given medals play down their actions, because they felt it was innate... "we're hard-wired for it" or "just doin' the job I was trained to do." , almost instinctively... or is it learned? I don't know. I do know this... like the guy above mentioned... it must take a lot of courage to "not take a shot" and risk the life of the soldiers screaming for our back-up.
I can't imagine... how do we define that courage? ... the on-going courage it would take to live a lifetime with the repercussions, self-doubt (not to mention the doubting of those around you that you serve with)... sometimes, I wonder if giving up a leg, or an arm might be easier - would it be easier to use a prosthesis? at least your mind can be still.
It's a toughie... and I'm still undecided. It's a bigger issue than most discussions I've read about it. I do believe that damage to the soul/mind [PTSD] is a real thing - unseen to those around the ones who suffer from it. I think I'd take a bullet any day, or give up a leg, before having to go down a recovery road of PTSD, because most don't make it and the stigma grows larger and heavier if we don't talk about the guy that "didn't take the shot," and the equally horrific damage done, or courage it required. Everyone's pain is different, as are choices and the repurcussions... and courage is also an individual thing... how exactly do we recognize an individual accomplishment within a truly team action as in the military and fighting for right? I don't know.
So, what exactly defines courage? what defines sacrifice?
Is the possibility of damage to the mind equal to the damage to the body?
I think we do have to answer the question this soldier asks,
"what about that guy that 'doesn't take the shot when a troop on the ground is screaming for it because the enemy is next to a bus full of 40 school kids." ?
Personally, I don't have a point of reference for defining bravery in battle. I wonder how much courage it takes to sacrifice yourself to save another human being. I've heard people who have been declared "heros" and/or given medals play down their actions, because they felt it was innate... "we're hard-wired for it" or "just doin' the job I was trained to do." , almost instinctively... or is it learned? I don't know. I do know this... like the guy above mentioned... it must take a lot of courage to "not take a shot" and risk the life of the soldiers screaming for our back-up.
I can't imagine... how do we define that courage? ... the on-going courage it would take to live a lifetime with the repercussions, self-doubt (not to mention the doubting of those around you that you serve with)... sometimes, I wonder if giving up a leg, or an arm might be easier - would it be easier to use a prosthesis? at least your mind can be still.
It's a toughie... and I'm still undecided. It's a bigger issue than most discussions I've read about it. I do believe that damage to the soul/mind [PTSD] is a real thing - unseen to those around the ones who suffer from it. I think I'd take a bullet any day, or give up a leg, before having to go down a recovery road of PTSD, because most don't make it and the stigma grows larger and heavier if we don't talk about the guy that "didn't take the shot," and the equally horrific damage done, or courage it required. Everyone's pain is different, as are choices and the repurcussions... and courage is also an individual thing... how exactly do we recognize an individual accomplishment within a truly team action as in the military and fighting for right? I don't know.
CBaker: cool, dude, Pass the hash and tell me some more babes.....wow.
And the message is.......................................................:yu k:
Let me help you along somewhat. NOTHING compares to battlefield stress. Nothing does it for you than the smell of fear, the smell of 'cold blood'. The thought that any second now your life will get snuffed out.
When these guys get rewarded for actions above the call of duty...they don't brag, they don't talk because the medal is almost an embarresment. The damage can manifest itself mentally or physically.
Now let's apply all of the above to drone operators.
Case dismissed............................
And the message is.......................................................:yu k:
Let me help you along somewhat. NOTHING compares to battlefield stress. Nothing does it for you than the smell of fear, the smell of 'cold blood'. The thought that any second now your life will get snuffed out.
When these guys get rewarded for actions above the call of duty...they don't brag, they don't talk because the medal is almost an embarresment. The damage can manifest itself mentally or physically.
Now let's apply all of the above to drone operators.
Case dismissed............................
Last edited by Thomas coupling; 27th Feb 2013 at 18:31.
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It appears that Congress has finally got into the act, and moved yesterday to prevent the Defense Department from establishing the Distinguished Warfare Medal for drone operators as an award that ranks higher than the Bronze Star for valor or the Purple Heart. The bill, H.R. 833, tells the Defense Department how to set the precedence of medals. There has been much criticism from the American Legion and the Veterans of Foreign Wars over the ranking of the new medal.
Bob C
Bob C
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Robert
You need to pass a bill through Congress for that ?
Can't someone just say (ie the Pres) to the Sec of Def,
"this is wrong, it needs changing, discuss where it should
sit and come back with some recommendations and we'll
make a decision."
Good to see it sorted.
You need to pass a bill through Congress for that ?
Can't someone just say (ie the Pres) to the Sec of Def,
"this is wrong, it needs changing, discuss where it should
sit and come back with some recommendations and we'll
make a decision."
Good to see it sorted.