New Medal for Drone Pilots
"Courageous Restraint"?
Adherence to ROE's in Las Vegas is a damn sight less gallant than when you are getting shot at by Mr. Taliban at close range with RPG's, LMG's, and AK's.
Come on you arm chair heroes.....give us a break.
Give the Drone crews Campaign Medals if you must, Commendation Medals for performance, but don't tell us this latest silly notion should rank above a Bronze Star that must be earned in the combat zone with the attendant personal risk that entails!
In my view the US Air Force Senior Command has once again shot themselves squarely in their own big fat chair borne ass.
Adherence to ROE's in Las Vegas is a damn sight less gallant than when you are getting shot at by Mr. Taliban at close range with RPG's, LMG's, and AK's.
Come on you arm chair heroes.....give us a break.
Give the Drone crews Campaign Medals if you must, Commendation Medals for performance, but don't tell us this latest silly notion should rank above a Bronze Star that must be earned in the combat zone with the attendant personal risk that entails!
In my view the US Air Force Senior Command has once again shot themselves squarely in their own big fat chair borne ass.
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"I can deal with the bullets and the bombs and the blood. I don't want money and I don't want medals."
"I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way."
"I'd prefer you just said thank you and went on your way."
Slightly hollywood I know, but I agree with the sentiment (although more money would be nice!)
IMHO , it seems to me that there is not much in the way of a basic 'thank you' in our current system and I for one would prefer that over a gong any day.
But if you want to have a p***ing contest over who should get what, knock yourself out.
Last edited by MAD Boom; 14th Feb 2013 at 10:56. Reason: Mistype
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here you go 
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I think that there are two seperate issues, whether a medal is appropriate and where it should sit in the order of precedence. The latter in this case is one for our American cousins to debate, the discussion about medallic recognition for those individuals not deployed within the Joint Operations Area is one that has already commenced here in the UK. Sir John Holmes issued his interim report back in Juy 2012 as part of his review of military medals, on this issue he wrote,
"A rather different issue which ... certainly needs to be considered more seriously by the MOD in the future is the changing nature of warfare, for example the question of recognition for those engaged in remote operations, firing cruise missiles or weapons carried by drones. They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes. Similar issues have arisen in the past for those who have made huge contributions to military campaigns but only in supporting or enabling roles, for example in the areas of aerial supply and maritime support, with limited physical presence in the area of operations. Numbers on the front lines in future campaigns may be limited, posing the issue of how to deal with support personnel ever more acutely. Serving personnel are very mindful of these changes to the nature of operations and what it may mean for the opportunities for medals in future."
I'm all for some form of Support to Operations medal, the devil will be in the detail but just as the way we fight wars is changing so should the way in which we recognise those who participate.
MB
"A rather different issue which ... certainly needs to be considered more seriously by the MOD in the future is the changing nature of warfare, for example the question of recognition for those engaged in remote operations, firing cruise missiles or weapons carried by drones. They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes. Similar issues have arisen in the past for those who have made huge contributions to military campaigns but only in supporting or enabling roles, for example in the areas of aerial supply and maritime support, with limited physical presence in the area of operations. Numbers on the front lines in future campaigns may be limited, posing the issue of how to deal with support personnel ever more acutely. Serving personnel are very mindful of these changes to the nature of operations and what it may mean for the opportunities for medals in future."
I'm all for some form of Support to Operations medal, the devil will be in the detail but just as the way we fight wars is changing so should the way in which we recognise those who participate.
MB
They are not themselves at physical risk but are in highly stressful situations and potentially contributing to major military successes.
No idea. We just got on with life.
Last edited by BEagle; 14th Feb 2013 at 12:30.
Stressful job? Oh dear me....absolutely!
As compared to what I might ask?
As compared to what I might ask?
We just got on with life.
Exactly as BEagle says, and as did the V-Force's underwater successors diring the Cold War.
Jack
PS Pehaps the UAS/RVP people should be eligible for the Vegas Cross, also known as the ..... Oh hang on!
Exactly as BEagle says, and as did the V-Force's underwater successors diring the Cold War.
Jack
PS Pehaps the UAS/RVP people should be eligible for the Vegas Cross, also known as the ..... Oh hang on!
Nope - the drone people should be awarded the Distinguished Order of the Dunkin' Donut.
A gilt life-size doughnut neck badge suspended on a DPM ribbon...nice. No doubt a resident
can photoshop something suitable?
A gilt life-size doughnut neck badge suspended on a DPM ribbon...nice. No doubt a resident
can photoshop something suitable?
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There I was 15,000 feet over Afghanistan all alone, a cold sweat oozed through my flying suit, the damn buildings air conditioning was playing up again.
Far below my aircraft I was tracking a known Taliban leader over hostile territory when I was hit, sharp shards of broken pencil lead hit my chin and splattered across my note pad, phew that was close, real close, scanning the desk I realised it was recoverable, making a mental note to check if I was eligible for the Purple Heart I regained my composure and started my run in, weapons live.....check, coffee percolator on.... check, donut delivery on desk.... check, remember to pick up wife's laundry on way home.. Check....
War was hell but someone had to do it, 5 miles to run and the turbulence hit us hard, I must remember to get them to fix that chair castor I thought as I flew us through the worst of it..
As I flew on my mind raced through the future headlines, Ace Pilot downs Taliban Leader, not for me the Bronze Star or other such inferior medals, but the DFC medal for valour in front of a TV Screen, the possibilities were endless, it was real, I was at war and the smell of it invaded my every pore, that bitter lemony after smell of pledge furniture polish that only one that has been there would know...
Far below my aircraft I was tracking a known Taliban leader over hostile territory when I was hit, sharp shards of broken pencil lead hit my chin and splattered across my note pad, phew that was close, real close, scanning the desk I realised it was recoverable, making a mental note to check if I was eligible for the Purple Heart I regained my composure and started my run in, weapons live.....check, coffee percolator on.... check, donut delivery on desk.... check, remember to pick up wife's laundry on way home.. Check....
War was hell but someone had to do it, 5 miles to run and the turbulence hit us hard, I must remember to get them to fix that chair castor I thought as I flew us through the worst of it..
As I flew on my mind raced through the future headlines, Ace Pilot downs Taliban Leader, not for me the Bronze Star or other such inferior medals, but the DFC medal for valour in front of a TV Screen, the possibilities were endless, it was real, I was at war and the smell of it invaded my every pore, that bitter lemony after smell of pledge furniture polish that only one that has been there would know...
Last edited by NutLoose; 14th Feb 2013 at 15:31.
Next thing you know.....as there is no greater love than to lay down your lives for a Brother!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRX...e_gdata_player
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXRX...e_gdata_player
quote:
Arguments aside, though, how do people feel the undoubted contribution to ops made by drone crews should be recognized?
By the Pay Cheque?
Old fashioned?
41 years observing, forecasting, teaching, then running whole clutches of Met for the RAF, uproot family every three years, Cyprus, Guetersloh, JHQ twice, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Finningley, Wyton, Brize, not a problem, just pay me at the end of the month like everyone else.
Would have really liked an ISO or OBE but I think that was swapped for a 6 year tour as CMetO BFG.
Fair deal as far as I was concerned.
It is really worrying if our allies are barking mad over gongs for armchair warriors ....... every flier that I issued a forecast to took a greater risk!
Arguments aside, though, how do people feel the undoubted contribution to ops made by drone crews should be recognized?
By the Pay Cheque?
Old fashioned?
41 years observing, forecasting, teaching, then running whole clutches of Met for the RAF, uproot family every three years, Cyprus, Guetersloh, JHQ twice, Leeming, Topcliffe, Church Fenton, Finningley, Wyton, Brize, not a problem, just pay me at the end of the month like everyone else.
Would have really liked an ISO or OBE but I think that was swapped for a 6 year tour as CMetO BFG.
Fair deal as far as I was concerned.
It is really worrying if our allies are barking mad over gongs for armchair warriors ....... every flier that I issued a forecast to took a greater risk!
What I fail to understand is why people want to draw a line between unmanned and manned when dealing with weapons delivery.
If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?
If I fire an AMRAAM at a target 35 miles away that I'm heading towards and tracking on RADAR (well outside of visual range) and I only see a fireball some 15 miles away when the target blows up - what's the difference?
What has more direct effect in a campaign, a Predator firing a Hellfire successfully against a Taliban leader or a manned C-130 delivering freight into Bastion or KAF - one is supporting the campaign and one is providing direct campaign effect?
The British Army get this right in declaring "Combat Arm" (which are the likes of the Infantry or AAC) and then "Combat Support" (which are the likes of REME or Int Corps) - although I know declaring the Royal Artillery as "Combat Support" causes some upset. If the RAF were to do the same then I would suggest it would be the following:
Combat Arm
FJ (ie. Typhoon, Tornado, Hawk)
Armed RPAS (ie. Reaper)
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)
Support Arm
AT (ie. C130, C17, Voyager, A400M, Tristar, A-109, HS125, BAe 146)
AAR (ie. VC10, Tristar, Voyager)
ISTAR (ie. E-3D, RJ, Sentinel, Shadow)
SAR (ie. Sea King)
Training (ie. Hawk, Squirrel, Tucano, Tutor)
The list above does not exhaust all types but gives the idea.
As for campaign medals for RPAS driving - Yes
As for bravery medals for RPAS driving - No
As for QCVSA for RPAS driving - Yes
As for Green Endorsements for RPAS driving - Yes
As for AFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
I really can't see why the above is all that difficult...
iRaven
If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?
If I fire an AMRAAM at a target 35 miles away that I'm heading towards and tracking on RADAR (well outside of visual range) and I only see a fireball some 15 miles away when the target blows up - what's the difference?
What has more direct effect in a campaign, a Predator firing a Hellfire successfully against a Taliban leader or a manned C-130 delivering freight into Bastion or KAF - one is supporting the campaign and one is providing direct campaign effect?
The British Army get this right in declaring "Combat Arm" (which are the likes of the Infantry or AAC) and then "Combat Support" (which are the likes of REME or Int Corps) - although I know declaring the Royal Artillery as "Combat Support" causes some upset. If the RAF were to do the same then I would suggest it would be the following:
Combat Arm
FJ (ie. Typhoon, Tornado, Hawk)
Armed RPAS (ie. Reaper)
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)
Support Arm
AT (ie. C130, C17, Voyager, A400M, Tristar, A-109, HS125, BAe 146)
AAR (ie. VC10, Tristar, Voyager)
ISTAR (ie. E-3D, RJ, Sentinel, Shadow)
SAR (ie. Sea King)
Training (ie. Hawk, Squirrel, Tucano, Tutor)
The list above does not exhaust all types but gives the idea.
As for campaign medals for RPAS driving - Yes
As for bravery medals for RPAS driving - No
As for QCVSA for RPAS driving - Yes
As for Green Endorsements for RPAS driving - Yes
As for AFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
I really can't see why the above is all that difficult...
iRaven
Last edited by iRaven; 14th Feb 2013 at 19:05.
If I'm sitting at 20,000ft and spiking an LGB to target on a TV screen in my cockpit via the targetting pod - what's the difference whether I sit in a FJ or in a cabin 4,000 miles away?
BEagle
With my ~1800hrs of Tornado flying and other types as well (on Ops including Balkans/Iraq/Afg), no, unless they are shooting at me with a SAM or an AAM, I cannot see the difference.
So do please enlighten me why I might correct my point of view...
iRaven
With my ~1800hrs of Tornado flying and other types as well (on Ops including Balkans/Iraq/Afg), no, unless they are shooting at me with a SAM or an AAM, I cannot see the difference.
So do please enlighten me why I might correct my point of view...
iRaven
Leaping back a whole page or so, I just wanted to leap to the defence of the guys who got a DFC on the first Storm Shadow mission. That was carried out in the first day or 2 of Op TELIC / IRAQI FREEDOM / whatever you want to call it, while the Iraqis still had an air defence system worthy of the name. They also had to go into the defended area to launch the missiles, so it was not an 'unopposed' shot.
Sorry, back to the thread!
Those RW are only armed for self defence - you don't send any of them out to act as attack platforms in themselves, so I would call them Support Arm. Virtually all Army Support Arm assets have some form of armament.
Don't trust Wikipedia... the definitions listed on the MOD Medal Office website are:
Both of these definitions require the recipient to have put his / her a*rse on the line, rather than on a comfy chair!
I agree with the principle of clasp-less campaign medals for UAV operators on the basis that they are taking a direct part in military action (which clerks, etc, outside theatre are not). However the medal should certainly not rank above any gallantry medals - I'm having a hard time imagining how the USAF argued that one...
Sorry, back to the thread!
Combat Arm
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)
Armed RW (ie. Chinook, Puma, Merlin)
As for AFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying, though not in active operations against the enemy") - why not? 
As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
As for DFCs (for "an act or acts of valour, courage or devotion to duty whilst flying in active operations against the enemy") - why not?
AFC - in recognition of exemplary gallantry in the air on non-active operations.
DFC - in recognition of exemplary gallantry during active operations against the enemy in the air.
DFC - in recognition of exemplary gallantry during active operations against the enemy in the air.
I agree with the principle of clasp-less campaign medals for UAV operators on the basis that they are taking a direct part in military action (which clerks, etc, outside theatre are not). However the medal should certainly not rank above any gallantry medals - I'm having a hard time imagining how the USAF argued that one...
Last edited by Easy Street; 14th Feb 2013 at 20:25.
Going back a page.
B/Stormer1968
Got your point but do slightly disagree.
What you are suggesting here is that the UAV's are hitting innocent targets. If I knew the chap in the street was going to do harm to mine and I could take him out before he did I would.
iRaven
That's exactly the point. While involved in operations is there a chance. no matter how slight, that you could end up at a tea party with the folks on the ground, then there is a difference.
As for the comment on targeting drivers that would include all from the actual airborne variety to the arm chair ones or do you think the baddies will say nah let him go he is only a tornado pilot we want UAV drivers.
B/Stormer1968
Got your point but do slightly disagree.
Many of us would be happy to batter an intruder into our homes who intend to do us harm, but how many of us would be happy to wander up to someone who could not hurt us, and then give them a good beating?
iRaven
With my ~1800hrs of Tornado flying and other types as well (on Ops including Balkans/Iraq/Afg), no, unless they are shooting at me with a SAM or an AAM, I cannot see the difference.
As for the comment on targeting drivers that would include all from the actual airborne variety to the arm chair ones or do you think the baddies will say nah let him go he is only a tornado pilot we want UAV drivers.
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A Reaper posting is at the top of my preferences and from friends operating the platform it really does sound like a satisfying job that makes a difference.............however there are many jobs in the forces and outside that do the same, SAR, emergency services, support roles, etc. They don't get medals for doing their day job, and nor should they.
The qualifying criteria for campaign medals will always capture differing levels of risk and hardship, some of the petty examples stated in this thread show spectacular ignorance of what other fleets were actually doing.
Most medals are just shiny bits of metal given out to make us forget that it was rubbish out there, or distract us from the fact that someone had to go above and beyond because someone else screwed up. (In no way am I trying to suggest any of the recipients didn't deserve their medal)
Looking at some posts in this thread you would think selflessness and a sense of duty were a thing of the past, luckily I know many who are not Mutleys they do not judge others by how many gongs they have or don't have
People take more risk on training exercises than an RPAS crew in a GCS unless you’re counting thrombosis or the risk of choking, what next a medal for CCS? Volunteer for the LRE if you want something shiny to show off
The qualifying criteria for campaign medals will always capture differing levels of risk and hardship, some of the petty examples stated in this thread show spectacular ignorance of what other fleets were actually doing.
Most medals are just shiny bits of metal given out to make us forget that it was rubbish out there, or distract us from the fact that someone had to go above and beyond because someone else screwed up. (In no way am I trying to suggest any of the recipients didn't deserve their medal
)Looking at some posts in this thread you would think selflessness and a sense of duty were a thing of the past, luckily I know many who are not Mutleys they do not judge others by how many gongs they have or don't have
People take more risk on training exercises than an RPAS crew in a GCS unless you’re counting thrombosis or the risk of choking, what next a medal for CCS? Volunteer for the LRE if you want something shiny to show off
Last edited by Ivan Rogov; 14th Feb 2013 at 20:25.
All
Fair point on the wikipedia quotes - that will learn me!
However, I have seen with my own eyes CH-47s using a minigun to take out bad people according to ROE...not in self defence.
As for the going to a 'Tea Party' - there is, I suggest, just as much chance in the current Afg op for an RPAS driver to be picked up by some nutters on the way to/from work and then having their head hacked off with their b@lls shoved in their gob!
Give them a campaign gong, with an Afghan clasp, and open your minds.
IMHO, of course...
iRaven
Fair point on the wikipedia quotes - that will learn me!
However, I have seen with my own eyes CH-47s using a minigun to take out bad people according to ROE...not in self defence.
As for the going to a 'Tea Party' - there is, I suggest, just as much chance in the current Afg op for an RPAS driver to be picked up by some nutters on the way to/from work and then having their head hacked off with their b@lls shoved in their gob!
Give them a campaign gong, with an Afghan clasp, and open your minds.
IMHO, of course...
iRaven