United Kingdom Military RT Phraseology
A and C
Like you and MG I used to try to be 'helpful' on check in with an ATC agency. The particular instance I think of is passing my QFE setting on handover to talkdown - it used to be common practice across the board. However ATC had their phraseology tightened up a few years back in response to some of the issues touched on earlier, and started passing the information again even if correctly stated by the pilot. Ours is not to question why - ours is to stick with the published phraseology and not to add extra stuff that we think might be useful. (Incidentally, the reason why ATC are supposed to tell you things like the QFE, rather than vice-versa, is this: if the controller passes information, the pilot mis-hears it, and reads back the wrong info, it needs to be mis-heard twice for the error to pass. If the pilot has the wrong information and gives it to the controller, it only needs to be mis-heard once and you have a problem).
As to the question of telling ATC what you are doing on check-in to a new freq: I think this is something that many pilots bring with them from previous experience at uncontrolled aerodromes, where you tell all and sundry what you're up to. At all controlled airfields the assumption is that ATC tell you what to do and everyone else assumes you will comply. That is the basis on which procedures in CAS are founded, and on which the standard phraseology is written, and if you try to reverse it, you end up confusing everyone. For the ultimate demonstration of this idea, try operating into an airfield controlled by Americans - at really busy ones, you're not even expected to check in on new freqs, you just change frequency when directed, press on with whatever clearance you last received, and listen out for the first instruction to come your way!
Xxxx tower xxxxx taxing to hold short runway xx
As to the question of telling ATC what you are doing on check-in to a new freq: I think this is something that many pilots bring with them from previous experience at uncontrolled aerodromes, where you tell all and sundry what you're up to. At all controlled airfields the assumption is that ATC tell you what to do and everyone else assumes you will comply. That is the basis on which procedures in CAS are founded, and on which the standard phraseology is written, and if you try to reverse it, you end up confusing everyone. For the ultimate demonstration of this idea, try operating into an airfield controlled by Americans - at really busy ones, you're not even expected to check in on new freqs, you just change frequency when directed, press on with whatever clearance you last received, and listen out for the first instruction to come your way!
Last edited by Easy Street; 9th Feb 2013 at 19:29.
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Military ATC Phraseology
It's very easy to complain about the amount of R/T phraseology used by RAF ATCOs and having served as an RAF ATCO for nearly 40 years I agree that a lot of it should be ditched.
However, remember that the RAF ATC Specialisation has a relatively minor input into what has to be transmitted in certain circumstances, the majority of the people that sit on the committees that makes these decision are aircrew!!
Matoman
However, remember that the RAF ATC Specialisation has a relatively minor input into what has to be transmitted in certain circumstances, the majority of the people that sit on the committees that makes these decision are aircrew!!
Matoman
Too much whinging about nothing here. Seriously, who gives a **** about what is said. As long as the message is clear and unambiguous, standard and professional, that's what the job is about. In some thousands of hours of fast jet time (and in FJ that meant a lot of departures and recoveries) I cannot think of one single occasion when I have had any sort of misunderstanding on RT with ATC. Is this PC and over-regulation being applied to yet another aspect of our lives?
I don't believe it's that difficult. Unless we choose to make it so. But, of course, everything has to have a rule so we can hold someone accountable if something goes wrong.
I don't believe it's that difficult. Unless we choose to make it so. But, of course, everything has to have a rule so we can hold someone accountable if something goes wrong.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
What it not true that ATCOs on Lightning bases had the crispest and least verbose RT?
I always used to judge Valley as the best mil ATC I had ever encountered. I guess they were helped by the fact that it was so busy, they got a lot of practice! And I guess the fact that most of the flying was syllabus-driven and cyclical would have helped them get into a groove as well.
Some of the current front-line bases, whilst not as busy, have a much more 'random' variety of stuff going on (pre-deployment training, exercises, etc) even when there's just one type based there - which makes it harder for ATC to be as crisp.
Jeez, never thought I'd see so many RAF aircrew leaping to praise and defend our ATCers. You certainly won't hear any of that in the crewrooms or Mess bars!
Some of the current front-line bases, whilst not as busy, have a much more 'random' variety of stuff going on (pre-deployment training, exercises, etc) even when there's just one type based there - which makes it harder for ATC to be as crisp.
Jeez, never thought I'd see so many RAF aircrew leaping to praise and defend our ATCers. You certainly won't hear any of that in the crewrooms or Mess bars!
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Can I ask a simple question here ...
When learning on the Chipmunk I was taught to expect, when cleared to land, that the wind be expressed fully in the form of "270'/15Kts" and not in the form "Westerly 15Kts" ... that way you could quickly workout the X-Wind component (using the grid from the En-Route Sup) ... and if you didn't get what was expected from the Tower ... then challenge (my QFI's exact words).
Now I guess with higher landing speeds your not going to be too worried ... so what's the form these days with Military ATC Wind (so to speak) ?
Best ...
Coff.
When learning on the Chipmunk I was taught to expect, when cleared to land, that the wind be expressed fully in the form of "270'/15Kts" and not in the form "Westerly 15Kts" ... that way you could quickly workout the X-Wind component (using the grid from the En-Route Sup) ... and if you didn't get what was expected from the Tower ... then challenge (my QFI's exact words).
Now I guess with higher landing speeds your not going to be too worried ... so what's the form these days with Military ATC Wind (so to speak) ?
Best ...
Coff.
Last edited by CoffmanStarter; 10th Feb 2013 at 07:25.
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Thanks to everyone who has replied to this thread. I didn't expect that I would be touching quite so many raw nerves, or reminding so many that their goats had already been got. (But then it is pprune).
I should point out (again) that my OP was not to complain (and certainly not to take the piss), merely better to understand what lay behind the RT and what replies were expected to calls that, despite CAP413, are non-standard in the civilian world.
Thanks, in particular, to Downwind.Maddl-Land for giving the context to Mil Ops. Pottering down the glideslope in an intact aircraft on an approach that I have the benefit of time and foreknowledge to pre-brief with modern avionics at 110 kias is, thankfully, different from the operations that the system was designed to support.
Until the next time...
I should point out (again) that my OP was not to complain (and certainly not to take the piss), merely better to understand what lay behind the RT and what replies were expected to calls that, despite CAP413, are non-standard in the civilian world.
Thanks, in particular, to Downwind.Maddl-Land for giving the context to Mil Ops. Pottering down the glideslope in an intact aircraft on an approach that I have the benefit of time and foreknowledge to pre-brief with modern avionics at 110 kias is, thankfully, different from the operations that the system was designed to support.
Until the next time...
Originally Posted by Easy Street.
Jeez, never thought I'd see so many RAF aircrew leaping to praise and defend our ATCers. You certainly won't hear any of that in the crewrooms or Mess bars!
Perhaps they all just got more practice then. Is it so much worse today?
Coff, I can see you turning finals with your ERS out checking the crosswind!
Last edited by Courtney Mil; 10th Feb 2013 at 09:23.
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on a Military airfield (or major Civil airport) nor does the aircraft taxy using Tower frequency, but Ground frequency,
As for mil ATC the one's at my place are always good to us although it can get a bit knickers in twistish if there are several a/c in cct. I believe that it's one of those units that baby ATC peeps are sent to finish their training; but it's just like driving behind a learner driver, you either get uptight and impatient or cut them a bit of slack.
I might add as well that unfortunately you get just a handful of mil pilots who think that apart from commercial traffic everything else in the sky should make way for them and everyone who flies for pleasure is somehow not professional in their appoach to flying. Yes there are nunmpties at the controls of any a/c mil or civ but I think you'll find that the vast majority of private pilots take great pride in flying just as professionally as their mil counterparts. In fact many of the pilots at my club are mil pilots and aircrew.
Last edited by thing; 10th Feb 2013 at 10:33.
I might add as well that unfortunately you get just a handful of mil pilots who think that apart from commercial traffic everything else in the sky should make way for them and everyone who flies for pleasure is somehow not professional in their appoach to flying.
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Courtney, How you have changed. I cannot remember you being so polite about ATC Controllers when you were a Flt Lt. And as for the things that you said about GCI Controllers,well they are not repeatable.
I do agree with your stance on all airspace being military but maybe a bit of a dream. Our Lords and Masters are only too happy to give things away, not to fight for what was ours.
Having recently operated at one of the RAF'S busiest airfields I do not agree with ac being on UHF and VHF while conducting the same event ie, Ground, Tower, Approach. It means that pilots do not hear all of the R/T calls and ATC are easily maxed out since their comms are not designed for it.
I do agree with your stance on all airspace being military but maybe a bit of a dream. Our Lords and Masters are only too happy to give things away, not to fight for what was ours.
Having recently operated at one of the RAF'S busiest airfields I do not agree with ac being on UHF and VHF while conducting the same event ie, Ground, Tower, Approach. It means that pilots do not hear all of the R/T calls and ATC are easily maxed out since their comms are not designed for it.
Last edited by Dominator2; 10th Feb 2013 at 10:54.
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I believe that it's one of those units that baby ATC peeps are sent to finish their training
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Yeah? I'm not sure I would necessarily exclude the commercial traffic either. All airspace should by military, available for loan (or lease) to civvies on an availability basis.
Last edited by thing; 10th Feb 2013 at 11:00.
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It's also worth mentioning that the first time they plug in their headset will be the first time that they speak to a real aircraft.
Didn't know that. No wonder some of them sound a bit frightened, poor buggers.
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Courtney Mil,
Agree 100++% your post #50. Getting the ATC peeps (no, not just the ones with 'lumpy jumpers') into the air as often as possible is – without doubt –THE best way to improve understanding and therefore the Service provided. And its quite good fun in its own right too!
Its also worth the aircrew getting into the tower (no, not just to ogle the girls, drink coffee and look out the VCR!) plugged into Zone/LARS for a couple of hrs; better yet, get to Swan or Prestwick for a ˝ day visit (if that’s allowed these days!) and get plugged in there. I do recall one (the only one, actually) such visit from a flying unit (all sqns based there) to West Drayton that did just that. Leg-pulling and smiley faces turned to stern concentration and frank disbelief – allied to rapidly developing deep concern - when sat in front an operational console showing the Airways complex, Vale of York and RAF Lincolnshire ‘in full effect’. Pennies dropped then too.
And the Happy Hour wasn’t bad either!
Agree 100++% your post #50. Getting the ATC peeps (no, not just the ones with 'lumpy jumpers') into the air as often as possible is – without doubt –THE best way to improve understanding and therefore the Service provided. And its quite good fun in its own right too!
Its also worth the aircrew getting into the tower (no, not just to ogle the girls, drink coffee and look out the VCR!) plugged into Zone/LARS for a couple of hrs; better yet, get to Swan or Prestwick for a ˝ day visit (if that’s allowed these days!) and get plugged in there. I do recall one (the only one, actually) such visit from a flying unit (all sqns based there) to West Drayton that did just that. Leg-pulling and smiley faces turned to stern concentration and frank disbelief – allied to rapidly developing deep concern - when sat in front an operational console showing the Airways complex, Vale of York and RAF Lincolnshire ‘in full effect’. Pennies dropped then too.
And the Happy Hour wasn’t bad either!
Last edited by Downwind.Maddl-Land; 10th Feb 2013 at 11:18.
And as for the things that you said about GCI Controllers,well they are not repeatable.
"Neatishead, Neatishead, this is (C/S) on handover from Eastern. Charlie 4 4 zero, tigerfast plus thirty", quoth one 56 Sqn nav, one fine day on exercise.
"Roger, climb angels blah, vector blab blah for CAP" came the young lady's reply.
"Shouldn't you have authenticated her?", queried the pilot, aka 'Thrombo'.
Quick as a flash came the reply from the back "Authenticate her? No need to - I've $hagged her!"......
Last edited by BEagle; 10th Feb 2013 at 11:43.
