Red Arrows for the Chop?
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Red Arrows for the Chop?
I've just had a wander over to UKAR and the latest buzz is a story in the Daily Mirror that the Red Arrows are now in Cameron's sights?
Mind you I don't think that Tory ex-Public School Types get along too famously with the Daily Mirror. A bit like a Neanderthal's Guardian or Independent really!
FB
Mind you I don't think that Tory ex-Public School Types get along too famously with the Daily Mirror. A bit like a Neanderthal's Guardian or Independent really!
FB
Aren't we about due the statutory 'Victory for [name of tabloid] as Red Arrows saved' campaign based upon someone seeing/claiming to have seen a document for the next PR? The Express won that campaign in the latter days of the Blair government, then again when Brown was PM, and then handed the baton over to the Mail, who failed miserably to claim victory in a story so badly handled (Reds banned from flying over Olympics because they'll upset illegal immigrants who've driven house prices down, or something like that) that it died a death very quickly.
I assume that after the Mail's inability to carry a made up story through to a successful conclusion, the cabal of tabloid editors stripped them of their right to have a second attempt and passed it on to the Mirror instead. I look forward to learning via these means that their campaign has been successful in due course and learning which organ has been tasked with fighting this essential campaign in the 2015 'crap defence related stories' season.
I assume that after the Mail's inability to carry a made up story through to a successful conclusion, the cabal of tabloid editors stripped them of their right to have a second attempt and passed it on to the Mirror instead. I look forward to learning via these means that their campaign has been successful in due course and learning which organ has been tasked with fighting this essential campaign in the 2015 'crap defence related stories' season.
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Am I the only one who thinks that the move to chop might have more legs this year than in the past?
I mean, if you were one of Their Airships and you were given the choice - the Arrows or something operational had to go, (as surely must be the case that's being put to them with the depth of the cuts being made), putting emotions aside for one moment - as you'd have to - what would you choose?
I hate to say it, but for the sake of the people in the field, I hope the answer would be an easy one.
A compromise might be one that works for other countries - maintain the Arrows, but in a part time capacity, with the members made up of pilots whose day job is instructing.
I mean, if you were one of Their Airships and you were given the choice - the Arrows or something operational had to go, (as surely must be the case that's being put to them with the depth of the cuts being made), putting emotions aside for one moment - as you'd have to - what would you choose?
I hate to say it, but for the sake of the people in the field, I hope the answer would be an easy one.
A compromise might be one that works for other countries - maintain the Arrows, but in a part time capacity, with the members made up of pilots whose day job is instructing.
Not that I have an inside edge, but as BAE Systems is a front runner with its Hawk AJT for the U.S. Air Force’s Advanced Pilot Training Platform, the winner of which will be chosen just next year and worth some $7bn, I would have thought it unlikely that the Red Arrows would be given the chop before a decision is made.
Any plans for a Stateside tour in the next 18-months per chance?
Any plans for a Stateside tour in the next 18-months per chance?
That's brilliant, but slightly spooky, Coff.
I seem to recall, from my considerable time at HQ1 Gp, having to answer questions every year about why we shouldn't scrap the Arrows and why we needed to keep 100 Sqn and so forth. Same question each time. Same answer each time. Same outcome each time. So I suppose it could be said that the headline is true. Every time.
I seem to recall, from my considerable time at HQ1 Gp, having to answer questions every year about why we shouldn't scrap the Arrows and why we needed to keep 100 Sqn and so forth. Same question each time. Same answer each time. Same outcome each time. So I suppose it could be said that the headline is true. Every time.
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Red Arrows/Leuchars Airshow
I hope they are bloody staying just got my wee nephew mad about Red Arrows and he wants to see them he will never forgive me, secondly the best chance he will get to see them is at RAF Leuchars so slight thread drift any word about that airshow this year??
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You know a rumour like this has some credibility as they have just completed a JRs accom upgrade and work has just started on resurfacing the rwy at Scampton............!
Last edited by Could be the last?; 2nd Feb 2013 at 11:45.
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About time
You can only sell the Crown Jewels once but these are not the Crown Jewels. I would hate to be the one to write up the Business Case for this. The Cost Benefit analysis would be very contentious. I have never understood how the RAFAT contributes to Defence. Is it really such a necessary recruiting tool? and would Waste of Space not sell other sharp pointy wizz jets if the tax payer did not fund the red stuff. Even if Waste of Space did adopt the team with 100% sponsorship the tax payer would still foot the bit through the overhead recovery element of their priceing structure.
In these austere times my vote would be to get rid!
If a choice had to be made between RAFAT and BBMF. it would be BBMF for me everytime.
In these austere times my vote would be to get rid!
If a choice had to be made between RAFAT and BBMF. it would be BBMF for me everytime.
Re: USAF Advanced Jet Trainer competition...
Using ~40 year old T1/T1As doing display routines to sell T2s to the US? You'd be better off sending BBMF with a Lancaster, Hurricane and Spitfire!
The T2 must have made its final sale? With the T-50 being offered by KAI and Lockheed Martin:
And the Machi M-346 being offered as the T100:
I really can't see how the Hawk T2 is going to 'tickle the USAF's fancy'? I know the USN have the T-45 Goshawk but that was bought to train a different generation of pilots for the previous generation F-14 and F-18 and not today's F-15, F-16, F-22 and F-35 jockeys.
The US aren't stupid and sending the Red Arrows to the US on BAE's behalf would not make one jot of difference in my opinion.
The B Word
Using ~40 year old T1/T1As doing display routines to sell T2s to the US? You'd be better off sending BBMF with a Lancaster, Hurricane and Spitfire!
The T2 must have made its final sale? With the T-50 being offered by KAI and Lockheed Martin:
And the Machi M-346 being offered as the T100:
I really can't see how the Hawk T2 is going to 'tickle the USAF's fancy'? I know the USN have the T-45 Goshawk but that was bought to train a different generation of pilots for the previous generation F-14 and F-18 and not today's F-15, F-16, F-22 and F-35 jockeys.
The US aren't stupid and sending the Red Arrows to the US on BAE's behalf would not make one jot of difference in my opinion.
The B Word
Last edited by The B Word; 2nd Feb 2013 at 12:35.
At the risk of upsetting folks....sending the Red's to the USA would just be a Warm Up Act for the Blues and T-Birds. Frontline aircraft with Afterburners get folks revved up.....classic trainers are well......uh.....old hat.
The Red's do a good show....but so do every other Team in the business.
Sending the BBMF would be a huge Smash Hit if done with the War Bird folks who show off the B-17, B-24, B-25's, 40's, 47's, 51's, 86's!
There is something about the sound of all those Merlins purring....but when them big piston radials go to barking.....we are talking Woody Time!
The Red's do a good show....but so do every other Team in the business.
Sending the BBMF would be a huge Smash Hit if done with the War Bird folks who show off the B-17, B-24, B-25's, 40's, 47's, 51's, 86's!
There is something about the sound of all those Merlins purring....but when them big piston radials go to barking.....we are talking Woody Time!
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I hope they are bloody staying just got my wee nephew mad about Red Arrows and he wants to see them he will never forgive me, secondly the best chance he will get to see them is at RAF Leuchars so slight thread drift any word about that airshow this year??
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"A formal decision is yet to be taken on whether there will be an RAF Leuchars Airshow in 2013. We will provide more information as we have it."
As someone else has commented, this doesn't look good... If you are Scottish based, then your nephew's next best chance might be the East Fortune Airshow, where the Red Arrows have sometimes appared (but sometimes not) in recent years:
East Fortune Airshow Feature Page on Undiscovered Scotland
More likely.....
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The Reds have a problem with aircraft attrition and not all of them are 'smokers' which is essential to their script. They are also flying legacy aircraft rather than front line contemporary so they are hardly flying the flag for the best of british these days. FWIW I think that air shows and display teams are the vital link between Joe Public; his family, and the Armed Forces. This year has seen Hawk, King Air, Tornado pulled from the air show circuit and Tutor is hanging on by a thread. The signal being sent from on high is that there is no appetite for public displays and it is reasonable to assume that RAFAT & BBMF are also highlighted on the austerity radar. Logic may suggest that they should go, but I suspect that the majority of the general public (and therefore taxpayers) would wish for them to stay. The Blue Eagles have gone and I believe The Army Historic Flight also; I suspect that at a time in the foreseeable future, display survival will depend totally on sponsorship and this is a rare commodity nowadays.
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Courtney,
Sounds like you're the chap to ask.
Every time this raises its head the argument gets bogged down mainly in myth and rumour. As the expert from Group can you give a data burst on how much the reds actually cost?
At about this time in the argument we usually get told that BAE pay for them, sponsors pay for them, defence sales pay for them...but no-one ever backs this up with any fact.
I'm thinking that fuel, actuals, LSA must be significant for the team as is pay, flying pay etc...which surely we still do pay for? How big a unit is RAFAT? Could we close a tower or airfield if we got rid of them, i.e. are there related costs as well?
I quite like the reds but I have to agree with SASless to be honest. Having watched a few Blue Angels displays recently - and the Thunderbirds last week - I certainly prefer the grunt of Hornets and Vipers to the reds' (perfect,elegant, flawless) airborne ballet.
Sounds like you're the chap to ask.
Every time this raises its head the argument gets bogged down mainly in myth and rumour. As the expert from Group can you give a data burst on how much the reds actually cost?
At about this time in the argument we usually get told that BAE pay for them, sponsors pay for them, defence sales pay for them...but no-one ever backs this up with any fact.
I'm thinking that fuel, actuals, LSA must be significant for the team as is pay, flying pay etc...which surely we still do pay for? How big a unit is RAFAT? Could we close a tower or airfield if we got rid of them, i.e. are there related costs as well?
I quite like the reds but I have to agree with SASless to be honest. Having watched a few Blue Angels displays recently - and the Thunderbirds last week - I certainly prefer the grunt of Hornets and Vipers to the reds' (perfect,elegant, flawless) airborne ballet.
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http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/reques...Arrows%20u.pdf
FOI question answer some of your questions as above
FOI question answer some of your questions as above