Lightning Mate

[Bevo]

Originally Posted by Dominator2

The Phantom was very sensative in pitch. It took a while for any pilot to get used to. It became obvious during AAR and at low level. In the USAF we did a low level accel and slow down to demonstrate the effects of pitchup and pitch down. 200kts to 600kts in full Afterburner and then idle/idle A/B and slow down. If a stude started to PIO you would only get 2 reversals to take control of you would be another hole in the desert floor.

I have posted this before but the memory is still vivid. During the early1970s, while stationed at RAF Lakenheath flying Phantoms, I got the opportunity for one flight in the Lightning at RAF Coltshall. This was of course a two seat version and unfortunately I don’t remember the assigned squadron. The thing I remember most was the excellent handling qualities of the aircraft compared to the Phantom especially in pitch. A very shot legged aircraft, however, and it seemed like we were out of gas just after we got airborne. This led to the reputation that Coltshall had among our pilots as a great place to divert to when the weather was really nasty as the GCA lads there were outstanding in their craft. We assumed that was because the Lightings were always short on fuel and couldn’t make very many missed approaches.

Question for the Lightning pilots here – what was the aircraft handling qualities like when the over-wing tanks were installed??

[BOAC]

Quite g limited, especially when full - airliner type g I recall. Otherwise they killed the look-out! I don't remember any adverse yaw effects.

[RetiredF4]

thing
I take it it was very interesting if you lost the pitch stab aug (in the phantom) then....

It sure would have been, but never lost one. Switched them off intentionally to demonstrate how it flies though to students and to frighten some tailgunners.

To put the pitch sensitivity of the phantom in the correct ligth i like to add to the discussion. Different phantom types behaved differently, and the fuel loading and external loads had an distict effct on pitch sensibility. The F4-F had a tank 5/6 lockout switch, when used those tanks stayed dry and the pitch sensibility was history. In types where this feature was not available proper fuel management with the transfer switches could prevent any pitch problem.

The mach tuck had nothing to do with the basic aerodynamic layout and was not present in one g flight. It was a problem of the artificial feel system. In supersonic flight the feel system created a very heavy stick affording some force to change the pitch, a lot more than in the subsonic region. Therefore when decelerating from supersonic / transsonic while applying g´s the fore mentioned stick force lighting led to an increased g load for a given identical stick force applied.

Nothing an expierienced phantom driver couldn´t handle on an average day.

I´m not familiar with the spey phantoms though, only flew the F-4E / F4F, RF-4C, RF-4E types.


Keep the stories coming, you lightning mates!

franzl

[thing]

I seem to remember the F4M had a tank 7 lockout. As I recall this was used when they were ferried away for service totally clean, otherwise you had to have two concrete Sparrows on the front stations to keep CG in limits.

When the Lightning was on it's rundown in '88 we had little to do so my boss sent me across to North Coates (funnily enough I flew into there not long ago, just a grass strip now) where for some reason they had a massive video library. North Coates was a SAM site. I cobbled together all of the Lighning vids I could find, most of which weren't in the best condition and made a master vid but I don't think anyone ever saw it apart from me. I transferred it onto DVD last year for the Lightning preservation group at Bruntingthorpe along with an interesting USAF vid from around 1960 called 'Weapons effects' which has some glorious old jets on it.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by franzl

Keep the stories coming, you lightning mates!

- indeed, and as an ex Lightning and Harrier driver I have the feeling WE definitely own this forum right now

[CoffmanStarter]

BOAC ... that's guaranteed to wind up the WIWOP community

[BOAC]

Yes, but you wouldn't want to admit to it in public, would you............

[BEagle]

....along with an interesting USAF vid from around 1960 called 'Weapons effects' which has some glorious old jets on it.

Was that the famous (and much appreciated) 'TAC Weapons Effect' film, which also features clips from the target itself - watching those Zuni rockets coming straight towards the camera was....interesting. The F-100 (?) which had to be abandoned after a premature detonation was also caught on camera.

Pah - enough of mud-moving! If you've got to move mud, do it with a bucket of sun and have done with it!

A very short legged aircraft, however and it seemed like we were out of gas just after we got airborne.

Indeed! I recall doing a Mixed Fighter Farce CAP in an F-4 with Porky P*** in a Lightning. Join CAP, a couple of turns around the CAP and Porky was off to find a tanker!

[Lightning Mate]

...after a premature detonation was also caught on camera.

That's the problem when you're making a porno film.....

[ORAC]

[CoffmanStarter]

Thanks ORAC ...

"Great Britain was slow in getting in to super sonic ..." How very dare that man"

I take it that was an old Meatbox that got splashed ?

[thing]

Was that the famous (and much appreciated) 'TAC Weapons Effect' film, which also features clips from the target itself - watching those Zuni rockets coming straight towards the camera was....interesting. The F-100 (?) which had to be abandoned after a premature detonation was also caught on camera.

It was indeed, along with suitably stirring martial music and a Hollywood style voiceover.

[BOAC]

Nice bit of film, ORAC - brings a lump to my err throat. Ah! The B-scope. Anyone know of a flt sim module?

PS Where did he pick up the missiles after refuelling?

PPS A bit late on the breakaway, Hoskins.

[newt]

Great stuff!! Bet the boys down the back had an exciting time during the rotation takeoffs at Farnborough!

[A A Gruntpuddock]

At about 3.26 or so it appears to show a gun firing from the top of the nose?

[newt]

Top guns fitted to early marks. You could also fit a gun pack instead of the missile pack and get 4 Aden cannon on board!! Great fun to fire but the vibration could cause problems!!

[Lightning Mate]

Great fun to fire but the vibration could cause problems!!

...and the cordite fumes in a Hunter cockpit!

Had to tape down the RH console circuit breakers on a 4-gun shoot.

[BEagle]

Had to tape down the RH console circuit breakers on a 4-gun shoot.

Not surprised at that! Whoever designed that daft location for CBs, which required a shoulder-dislocating struggle and a deftness of touch like James Herriot halfway up a cow's arse should be taken outside and given a firm talking-to!

Never fired more than 1 Aden in the Hunter - but the old hands said that the noise, vibration and general fury when firing all 4 was somewhat spectacular; however, the resulting tripped CBs and double transfer failure were rather less welcome.

[BOAC]

Originally Posted by A A Gruntpuddock

a gun firing from the top of the nose

- yes 'standard' fit, but the a/c missile stubs are empty and he manages to 'loose' a Firesqueak - 0/10 for the continuity girl.(lovely legs, though....)

4 cannon - I believe fillings used to loosen in the teeth too, and they tell me the 'pussy cat' used to go backwards.

[X767]

The "Full War Load" day at the end of the El Adem APC was always worthwhile.

Firing out 540 rounds of 30mm ( you had to start firing "a little out of range"), followed by 8 x SAP headed 3-inch drains in ripple made your hair stand on end.
Happy days indeed !

Notwithstanding the CB's and double transfer hiccups