Red Arrows - Flt Lt Jon Egging Inquest
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Party Animal
Quite agree. Watching the item with some others in my local yesterday, the general comment was 'We didn't used to get all this information pushed out, and at such length, why so now? We don't need it, let him RIP'
The BBC lust for reporting of this nature predictably results in accuracy. One newsreader 'quoted' the possible cause as A-Lock, and said that "had the ground been about 30-odd feet lower, the pilot would have survived the crash". Awful.
If you insist on pandering to the likes of Trim Stab, BBC - then please do so with knowledge and accuracy.
Quite agree. Watching the item with some others in my local yesterday, the general comment was 'We didn't used to get all this information pushed out, and at such length, why so now? We don't need it, let him RIP'
The BBC lust for reporting of this nature predictably results in accuracy. One newsreader 'quoted' the possible cause as A-Lock, and said that "had the ground been about 30-odd feet lower, the pilot would have survived the crash". Awful.
If you insist on pandering to the likes of Trim Stab, BBC - then please do so with knowledge and accuracy.
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Easy Street:
if other aggravating factors are present.
if other aggravating factors are present.
I fear the rumour-mill caused by recent 'Hot Poop' directives may indicate some of the lines of investigation, if nothing more...
RIP Fella.
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Firstly Im sorry to hear that some of you lost a good friend and colleague.
I have always enjoyed seeing the Red Arrows during my life and they were partially responsible for me getting into the aviation world and then blowing 1000's learning to fly, albeit rotary wing.
I recently attended a conference on the NASA ACAT system that is now being fielded on the US F-16 fleet and is designed to prevent incidents such as these, along with other CFIT occurences.
I realise that the ACAT equipped aircraft requires an autopilot and FBW control system but do the guys here with military aerobatic flying experience believe this system would have helped, or is there some operational reason/s that would make it impractical?
I have always enjoyed seeing the Red Arrows during my life and they were partially responsible for me getting into the aviation world and then blowing 1000's learning to fly, albeit rotary wing.
I recently attended a conference on the NASA ACAT system that is now being fielded on the US F-16 fleet and is designed to prevent incidents such as these, along with other CFIT occurences.
I realise that the ACAT equipped aircraft requires an autopilot and FBW control system but do the guys here with military aerobatic flying experience believe this system would have helped, or is there some operational reason/s that would make it impractical?
More bang for your buck
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You really are a load of hypocrites on here aren't you? One minute you're shouting that the press are a lot of incompetent 
that don't get their facts right, the next you're condemning them for giving you factual information from a PUBLIC inquest that anyone can go and watch. You cant have it both ways.
that don't get their facts right, the next you're condemning them for giving you factual information from a PUBLIC inquest that anyone can go and watch. You cant have it both ways.
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Red Arrows - Flt Lt Jon Egging Inquest
Fantom
Whilst 6.3 g may not be the norm there are a number of reasons a pilot might use it on the break. Firstly perhaps because the Hawk is a very slick aircraft and it's difficult to bleed speed without loading it up, secondly because you may wish to adjust the spacing within the formation to ensure it looks pretty downwind and that the spacing is correct on finals.
It's also of course possible a pilot was shooting for less than that and hit wake from a preceding aircraft.
These are general comments and not intended to reflect upon the specific circumstances in Bournmouth
Whilst 6.3 g may not be the norm there are a number of reasons a pilot might use it on the break. Firstly perhaps because the Hawk is a very slick aircraft and it's difficult to bleed speed without loading it up, secondly because you may wish to adjust the spacing within the formation to ensure it looks pretty downwind and that the spacing is correct on finals.
It's also of course possible a pilot was shooting for less than that and hit wake from a preceding aircraft.
These are general comments and not intended to reflect upon the specific circumstances in Bournmouth
I didn't think that I would ever speak for the media but I think that, in this case, the Echo, a local paper, was reflecting the considerable interest of the local community in this tragic event.
Bournemouth has had a long, close association with the Red Arrows ever since they have used the local airport as a base for displays in the South. They stay at local hotels and support many local charities. Supported by the Echo, the local community stepped up to ensure that John Egging will never be forgotten in this area. I think they could be forgiven a bit of excess reporting on this occasion.
Bournemouth has had a long, close association with the Red Arrows ever since they have used the local airport as a base for displays in the South. They stay at local hotels and support many local charities. Supported by the Echo, the local community stepped up to ensure that John Egging will never be forgotten in this area. I think they could be forgiven a bit of excess reporting on this occasion.
More bang for your buck
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Try digesting what I said
Per Ardua ad Astraeus
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fantom - I really want to stay out of this thread and 'wait for the BoI' if you don't mind.
Regarding the 'Echo', yes, I find the minute by minute tracking a little distasteful and unnecessary although I am well aware of the relationship the team has with Bournemouth and the local interest there. .
Regarding the 'Echo', yes, I find the minute by minute tracking a little distasteful and unnecessary although I am well aware of the relationship the team has with Bournemouth and the local interest there. .
Dog Tired
Thanks ASRAAM.
BOAC, I was just about to delete you from my post - unfair to you - but you beat me to it. By the way, I thought the BoI had already taken place; didn't the Wg Cdr appear at the inquest?
BOAC, I was just about to delete you from my post - unfair to you - but you beat me to it. By the way, I thought the BoI had already taken place; didn't the Wg Cdr appear at the inquest?
Fantom et al,
Anyone who's flown the T1 will tell you that 6+G on the break from something of the order of 400kts isn't remotely uncommon. I don't think you ever pulled less than about 4.5G to slow it down, and if you were tightly-packed or wanted to slow down rapidly then 6 was the order of the day.
Anyone who's flown the T1 will tell you that 6+G on the break from something of the order of 400kts isn't remotely uncommon. I don't think you ever pulled less than about 4.5G to slow it down, and if you were tightly-packed or wanted to slow down rapidly then 6 was the order of the day.
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Chaps,
I think we need to zoom out a little here.
We now, rightly or wrongly, live in an age where information (of all grades of accuracy) flies around the world via many media, at a speed, that we would not have recognised even 10 years ago.
We live in a world where, rightly or wrongly, people's primary instinct appears to first capture any incident of any gravitas on film or in a picture and then publish it to the web without a thought for how appropriate that might be or how sensitive or otherwise the timing is.
We no longer live in a world where the only source of information is an accident report on the crewroom coffee table.
In this specific instance we are discussing a tragedy that occurred not only in the public eye, but to a (much admired, desperately missed) colleague who lived in the public eye - being as he was a RAFAT pilot.
I'm not convinced we need some of the reporting we see as I think it is unnecessary and invasive. I don't really buy the argument that the tax payer bought the aeroplane so has a right to know what happened. After all - many of those that get the information do not pay taxes and the tax payers that bought that particular aeroplane are probably few and far between. And (key point) this is nothing to do with the festering aeroplane - it's about the hero who was driving the thing.
But we will drive ourselves into misery if we don't rise above it. I personally don't care if someone wants to make statements such as 'if the ground wasn't there he wouldn't have crashed'. I personally don't care which media outlets want to run a minute by minute account of what goes on in a coroner's court. I know that my aviation knowledge is at a sufficient level that no-one from any newspaper or website will be able to tell me anything I don't know. So I leave them alone. Likewise I have, and cherish, my own memories of Eggman - which will not be replaced by anything said, written or published about this tragedy.
I suggest we leave this as a sad symptom of the age we live in - and at the same time concentrate on the actual headline which is that those that need to know what happened on that awful day are a step closer to finding out. And if that brings the loved ones closure, or stops it happening again - well that's a good thing.
RIP Eggman, Fly safely everyone else.
I think we need to zoom out a little here.
We now, rightly or wrongly, live in an age where information (of all grades of accuracy) flies around the world via many media, at a speed, that we would not have recognised even 10 years ago.
We live in a world where, rightly or wrongly, people's primary instinct appears to first capture any incident of any gravitas on film or in a picture and then publish it to the web without a thought for how appropriate that might be or how sensitive or otherwise the timing is.
We no longer live in a world where the only source of information is an accident report on the crewroom coffee table.
In this specific instance we are discussing a tragedy that occurred not only in the public eye, but to a (much admired, desperately missed) colleague who lived in the public eye - being as he was a RAFAT pilot.
I'm not convinced we need some of the reporting we see as I think it is unnecessary and invasive. I don't really buy the argument that the tax payer bought the aeroplane so has a right to know what happened. After all - many of those that get the information do not pay taxes and the tax payers that bought that particular aeroplane are probably few and far between. And (key point) this is nothing to do with the festering aeroplane - it's about the hero who was driving the thing.
But we will drive ourselves into misery if we don't rise above it. I personally don't care if someone wants to make statements such as 'if the ground wasn't there he wouldn't have crashed'. I personally don't care which media outlets want to run a minute by minute account of what goes on in a coroner's court. I know that my aviation knowledge is at a sufficient level that no-one from any newspaper or website will be able to tell me anything I don't know. So I leave them alone. Likewise I have, and cherish, my own memories of Eggman - which will not be replaced by anything said, written or published about this tragedy.
I suggest we leave this as a sad symptom of the age we live in - and at the same time concentrate on the actual headline which is that those that need to know what happened on that awful day are a step closer to finding out. And if that brings the loved ones closure, or stops it happening again - well that's a good thing.
RIP Eggman, Fly safely everyone else.
Although I would suggest that those who "need" to know what happened on that awful day knew about 16 months ago.
The vast majority of FJ aircrew (of my acquaintance, anyway) correctly 'guessed' G-LOC as the cause after seeing video footage of the accident, so in that sense LAL is right. However, the restricted internal distribution of interim SI reports (which has seemingly got tighter in the MAA era) means that aggravating factors continue to enter the rumour mill following the occasional release of a brief arse-covering note from the hierarchy (with no indication that it's related to any accident investigation, let alone a specific one). One such note was obviously linked to this accident, but what about the other seemingly un-prompted and utterly trivial pronouncements of recent months? In the absence of a joined-up report it's inevitable that the crew-room investigators will come up with additional 'causes' - and that's no way to run a safety system. If the rumours are correct, the aggravating factors have probably been brought together hundreds of times since the tragic loss of Eggman. I for one will be interested to see how the reviewing authorities square one of the rumoured aggravating factors against a long-standing RAF policy - enough said, as those on the inside will know what I'm on about.
Last edited by Easy Street; 16th Dec 2012 at 09:59.
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The Service Inquiry report is now available to view here: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...20-august-2011