Time to stop the Coningsby flying club?
Thread Starter
Time to stop the Coningsby flying club?
It seems to me that many of the problems for the FJ world at the moment can be summed up with "too much work, not enough play".
We all know how it works - "sorry chaps we're overstretched so we still have to go to Saudi/falklands/Turkey but we are going to cancel Flag and the Sqn exchange".
It seems to me that we have to make the most of the assets we have which act as a light at the end of the tunnel for some people.
One of these assets should be the BBMF. For too long it has been run as a private air force by a small mafia and is a nice little perk for some at Cgy. Why not run this rather like the Reds with a selection procedure and a place on the "team" for 3 years. It need not be a full time job which might limit where successful aplicants came from but ask guys at Cott/Witt/Mar/Colt/
Wadd/Cran if they'd be willing to travel once or twice a week and I know the answer you'd get.
The good deals open to the average mate can now be counted on the fingers of one hand - lets open this one up to make it fairer for everybody.
We all know how it works - "sorry chaps we're overstretched so we still have to go to Saudi/falklands/Turkey but we are going to cancel Flag and the Sqn exchange".
It seems to me that we have to make the most of the assets we have which act as a light at the end of the tunnel for some people.
One of these assets should be the BBMF. For too long it has been run as a private air force by a small mafia and is a nice little perk for some at Cgy. Why not run this rather like the Reds with a selection procedure and a place on the "team" for 3 years. It need not be a full time job which might limit where successful aplicants came from but ask guys at Cott/Witt/Mar/Colt/
Wadd/Cran if they'd be willing to travel once or twice a week and I know the answer you'd get.
The good deals open to the average mate can now be counted on the fingers of one hand - lets open this one up to make it fairer for everybody.
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Time to stop the Coningsby flying club?
Flaps: Mate you must have logged on with the wrong name, because you usually make such an **** of yourself, yet I find that I am with you 100% on this one.
Either that or you have passed a maturity threshold, when was your birthday?
Yozzer
Are the BBMF not moving to Scampton with all the other Egoes? Perhaps there is hope for the Hoover mates yet!
Keep a Wessex alive thats what I say
Either that or you have passed a maturity threshold, when was your birthday?
Yozzer
Are the BBMF not moving to Scampton with all the other Egoes? Perhaps there is hope for the Hoover mates yet!
Keep a Wessex alive thats what I say
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It doesn't look like they are off to Scampton - they may well end up boltholing to Barkston Heath for a while owing to wip at Coningsby next year, but it would seem likely that they will return after that.
Thread Starter
Rad-alt,
you haven't said whether you think it should be open to all though. And what about the rest of the shags out there - is everyone happy that there is a system in place which allows some-one (however good a job he has done - this is not a personal attack) to get 1000hrs in spits and Hurris. Wouldn't it be so much better to spread the good times throughout a hard pressed air force rather than keep it to a "few".
ps I refuse to rise to your bait Rad-alt as I think that this topic merits discussion and so I'll not have my tongue firmly in my cheek as I type (unlike other contributions).
you haven't said whether you think it should be open to all though. And what about the rest of the shags out there - is everyone happy that there is a system in place which allows some-one (however good a job he has done - this is not a personal attack) to get 1000hrs in spits and Hurris. Wouldn't it be so much better to spread the good times throughout a hard pressed air force rather than keep it to a "few".
ps I refuse to rise to your bait Rad-alt as I think that this topic merits discussion and so I'll not have my tongue firmly in my cheek as I type (unlike other contributions).
Last edited by Flap62; 11th Apr 2002 at 21:10.
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I think you chaps should bear in mind that the aircraft you are talking about are part of our national heritage and as such should not be allowed to be flown by "shags".
Sorry, they aren't there for your amusement.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.
Sorry, they aren't there for your amusement.
Sounds like a bunch of sour grapes to me.
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Flap - as there's no formal selection procedure currently in place, are there ANY definite requirements beyond a "face that fits" or wildly precocious facial hair? Do F3 types always get first dibs as is suggested here?
It seems a shame if this is the case when everyone who flies frontline has by necessity proved themselves competent and skilled operators, who work hard and provide an invaluable service to the UK.
MORE FUN FOR ALL!
It seems a shame if this is the case when everyone who flies frontline has by necessity proved themselves competent and skilled operators, who work hard and provide an invaluable service to the UK.
MORE FUN FOR ALL!
When I was at Coningsby, the guys who were selected to fly the priceless BBMF aircraft had to 'fit in', be prepared to work weekends despite their 'day jobs' of teaching people like me to fly the F4 and to prove themselves to the likes of that awfully nice Mr Wratten.
They didn't just jump straight into a Mk19 Spit and roar off - there was a very careful work up programme which went (I think) Chipmunk, then Hurricane, then 'little' Spit, then - after many hours on the Flight - 'big' Spit.
Not something that some 'shag' can readily aspire to unless located at the same base as the BBMF. I'm not quite sure why a Lancaster is considered part of a 'Battle of Britain' memorial flight - but it is. What a shame that we haven't got a flying museum which can also still keep Meteors, Vampires, Venoms, Hunters, Gnats etc flying as well. The civvies do that - and a grand job they do as well!!
Personally I think that the BBMF does a much better job than a certain team of red aeroplanes just up the road from them do...
They didn't just jump straight into a Mk19 Spit and roar off - there was a very careful work up programme which went (I think) Chipmunk, then Hurricane, then 'little' Spit, then - after many hours on the Flight - 'big' Spit.
Not something that some 'shag' can readily aspire to unless located at the same base as the BBMF. I'm not quite sure why a Lancaster is considered part of a 'Battle of Britain' memorial flight - but it is. What a shame that we haven't got a flying museum which can also still keep Meteors, Vampires, Venoms, Hunters, Gnats etc flying as well. The civvies do that - and a grand job they do as well!!
Personally I think that the BBMF does a much better job than a certain team of red aeroplanes just up the road from them do...
Thread Starter
Shy torque and Beagle,
Obvously the word "shag" has different meanings to me and you. You seem to see it as some gash, junior bloke. I see shag as being a Flt Lt/FO junior officer who carries the burden of sqn duties. It is the "shag" QWIs who plan and lead the dets., it is the "shag" QFIs who put in all the hard work to get through AFIs and it is the "regular shags" who make the sqn run day to day. Yet somehow these guys aren't capable or fit to fly BBMF despite daily being trusted with millions of pounds of high tech kit. Shame on you for perpetuating elitist nonsense.
You will also notice that I suggested that candidates would need to go through a selection procedure. It should be obvious to all that a set up where it is all decided "in house" at Cgy is always going to be open to criticisms of nepotism. I don't suggest that the team should not have an input (indeed, quite properly the Reds do), but that overall control of selection should be taken out of their hands and entry thrown open to the masses.
I also wondered how long it would take the "oh you could only do it if stationed at Cgy for reasons of continuity etc". This doesn't stop the vast majority of warbird flyers in the uk who fly once or twice a week and have other "day jobs". It also doesn't seem to stop the occasional higher ranking officer from "keeping his hand in" (I seem to remember AVM Allison stuffing a 109-was he at CGY regularly and what was his currency like).
If you try to tell me that a sharp young front line mate, flying regularly could not do the job by say driving from Marham, flying in the PM, nightstopping and flying twice AM before rtb, then I'm sorry but I just couldn't agree.
As for your point Beagle about just strapping on a spit. Please re-read my post and you will see that I never sugested that. I suggested a 3 year appointment (involving a work up), if this is not enough - ok lets make it 5 years. 1 on a chippie, one on a Harvard, 2 on a hurri and finally on a spit.
To be honest I do not have the breakdown of the Spit and Hurri drivers for the last 10 years as spotting aint my thang so to prove that it's not a Cgy flying club could someone post all the names of guys who wern't F3 and Cgy based?
Editted for tooping
Obvously the word "shag" has different meanings to me and you. You seem to see it as some gash, junior bloke. I see shag as being a Flt Lt/FO junior officer who carries the burden of sqn duties. It is the "shag" QWIs who plan and lead the dets., it is the "shag" QFIs who put in all the hard work to get through AFIs and it is the "regular shags" who make the sqn run day to day. Yet somehow these guys aren't capable or fit to fly BBMF despite daily being trusted with millions of pounds of high tech kit. Shame on you for perpetuating elitist nonsense.
You will also notice that I suggested that candidates would need to go through a selection procedure. It should be obvious to all that a set up where it is all decided "in house" at Cgy is always going to be open to criticisms of nepotism. I don't suggest that the team should not have an input (indeed, quite properly the Reds do), but that overall control of selection should be taken out of their hands and entry thrown open to the masses.
I also wondered how long it would take the "oh you could only do it if stationed at Cgy for reasons of continuity etc". This doesn't stop the vast majority of warbird flyers in the uk who fly once or twice a week and have other "day jobs". It also doesn't seem to stop the occasional higher ranking officer from "keeping his hand in" (I seem to remember AVM Allison stuffing a 109-was he at CGY regularly and what was his currency like).
If you try to tell me that a sharp young front line mate, flying regularly could not do the job by say driving from Marham, flying in the PM, nightstopping and flying twice AM before rtb, then I'm sorry but I just couldn't agree.
As for your point Beagle about just strapping on a spit. Please re-read my post and you will see that I never sugested that. I suggested a 3 year appointment (involving a work up), if this is not enough - ok lets make it 5 years. 1 on a chippie, one on a Harvard, 2 on a hurri and finally on a spit.
To be honest I do not have the breakdown of the Spit and Hurri drivers for the last 10 years as spotting aint my thang so to prove that it's not a Cgy flying club could someone post all the names of guys who wern't F3 and Cgy based?
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The only people posted to BBMF full time are the groundcrew and OC BBMF. All the rest are part timers with other primary jobs. All the Lanc/Dak pilots are non-CGY (one Dom, one Canberra and 3 AWACS). The other pilots are all from CGY, but even then, they cannot come from the operational sqns because they are deployed away too much (this isn't a recent caveat, it has always been there, even when overstretch wasn't so much of an issue). I can understand that membership of BBMF might be seen as a perk of being CGY based, but the a/c have to be based somewhere. The BBMF doesn't only operate at weekends and you need people based locally so as to minimse the disruption to their primary job. I had the privelage of being an F3 OCU instructor and co-pilot on the Lanc and it was the best time I have had so far in the RAF. The flying was great, but the biggest thrill and most humbling occasions were the many times when we met the "old boys" who had flown these things in anger. The BBMF is a flying museum dedicated to the memory of those who fought for us, and is not restricted to just BofB pilots. Long may it continue to fly.
Thread Starter
Ali, thank you for supporting my argiment by saying that your time on BBMF was your best time in the RAF. My point exactly. I still don't think that it washes that you have to be Cgy based to do the job part time. A rather flimsy excuse for keeping it a closed shop.
As for keeping them flying, I would agree with Beagle that they probably do more for PR in the UK than the Reds. The emphasis in the title of this thread should be put on "Coningsby".
As for keeping them flying, I would agree with Beagle that they probably do more for PR in the UK than the Reds. The emphasis in the title of this thread should be put on "Coningsby".
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Flaps 62
Elsewhere on prune;
“Unfortunately you all seem to be masters of whingeing on an anonymous forum whereas myself and mates like me did something when we thought conditions were unfair. We used the skills we had and spent a good deal of time and money to make them useable in the outside world, then went and got a job.”
So explain to me how you would have had time to take on this when serving, as you appear to have been busy feathering your nest. Also, as a civvy it’s actually got sod all to do with you.
Elsewhere on prune;
“Unfortunately you all seem to be masters of whingeing on an anonymous forum whereas myself and mates like me did something when we thought conditions were unfair. We used the skills we had and spent a good deal of time and money to make them useable in the outside world, then went and got a job.”
So explain to me how you would have had time to take on this when serving, as you appear to have been busy feathering your nest. Also, as a civvy it’s actually got sod all to do with you.
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Cheapseat
Actually as a civvy I'm really quite interested in any suggestion that would enhance aircrew retention and would, therefore, increase the return I got from my taxes that are spent on aircrew training.
As a civvy I’m aware that the forces help protect my country's sovereignty and project the power and image of my country. What goes on in those forces is very definitely my business. Every citizen of this country should be profoundly interested in and active in supporting all that goes on in the forces.
Ultimately the Forces report to a body selected by the citizens of the country, civilian or otherwise. So ‘actually as a civvy’ it's got sodding everything to do with me.
I believe the same probably applies to Flaps.
Actually as a civvy I'm really quite interested in any suggestion that would enhance aircrew retention and would, therefore, increase the return I got from my taxes that are spent on aircrew training.
As a civvy I’m aware that the forces help protect my country's sovereignty and project the power and image of my country. What goes on in those forces is very definitely my business. Every citizen of this country should be profoundly interested in and active in supporting all that goes on in the forces.
Ultimately the Forces report to a body selected by the citizens of the country, civilian or otherwise. So ‘actually as a civvy’ it's got sodding everything to do with me.
I believe the same probably applies to Flaps.
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Flap62,
No, I think I see the expression "shag" as meaning exactly the same as you appear to. I fitted that description for 18 years.
Those aircraft are too valuable to be flown part-time by someone who might see it just as a bit of fun or light relief from more mundane duties.
Sorry, we'll just have to disagree
No, I think I see the expression "shag" as meaning exactly the same as you appear to. I fitted that description for 18 years.
Those aircraft are too valuable to be flown part-time by someone who might see it just as a bit of fun or light relief from more mundane duties.
Sorry, we'll just have to disagree
Thread Starter
Cheapseat. I think that it's right that i should comment on issues which might have persuaded me to stay. It was not the money or tasking per se which prompted me to leave, but the constant drip drip of "sorry boys we've had to cancel this good deal as the engineers can't support that and our Op whatever commitment".
What I proposed would be virtually a no cost option and there might just be a few guys out there who would stay in to have a crack a flying part of our aviation heritage.
Torque - I guess you're right, we'd probably always disagree on any given point, but I never intended anyone to use it as a bit of light relief. Remember that it has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread that the guys flying for the BBMF have other day jobs and essentially do this "part-time". This does not mean that they are not completely professional, far from it - just as it does not mean that an experienced instructor on the Harrier OCU or at Cranwell would treat BBMF as a bit of a jolly.
There are few enough things left that give you that grin factor. As was mentioned a few posts ago, entry to the BBMF is not drawn from the Line Sqns at Cgy, so we are talking about some of the best flying being given to a very small pool of pilots.
Hard work is not a problem for most guys and so the old chestnut of "oh you're already bleating about overtasking, how could you possibly cope with this as well" just doesn't wash. Hard work is not the problem in the retention issue. Hard work with all the good bits taken away is!
At the end of the day a properly selected guy who fitted in with the team and just happened to be stationed at Cranwell could do the job and therefore he should be given the chance to. The system which allows some people to fly these beautiful aircraft for years on end accumulating over a thousand hours when guys are leaving the service because they haven't a chance of seeing a good deal is patently unfair.
What I proposed would be virtually a no cost option and there might just be a few guys out there who would stay in to have a crack a flying part of our aviation heritage.
Torque - I guess you're right, we'd probably always disagree on any given point, but I never intended anyone to use it as a bit of light relief. Remember that it has been pointed out elsewhere on this thread that the guys flying for the BBMF have other day jobs and essentially do this "part-time". This does not mean that they are not completely professional, far from it - just as it does not mean that an experienced instructor on the Harrier OCU or at Cranwell would treat BBMF as a bit of a jolly.
There are few enough things left that give you that grin factor. As was mentioned a few posts ago, entry to the BBMF is not drawn from the Line Sqns at Cgy, so we are talking about some of the best flying being given to a very small pool of pilots.
Hard work is not a problem for most guys and so the old chestnut of "oh you're already bleating about overtasking, how could you possibly cope with this as well" just doesn't wash. Hard work is not the problem in the retention issue. Hard work with all the good bits taken away is!
At the end of the day a properly selected guy who fitted in with the team and just happened to be stationed at Cranwell could do the job and therefore he should be given the chance to. The system which allows some people to fly these beautiful aircraft for years on end accumulating over a thousand hours when guys are leaving the service because they haven't a chance of seeing a good deal is patently unfair.
'Shag QWI' or 'Shag QFI' are terms which are oxymoronic. The only reason that F4 OCU instructors provided the majority (and the Major) pilots was due to their relative protection from short notice Service diversions. Hence they were able to maintain the best possible continuity outside a specially-established veteran aeroplane flying unit.
Those who suggest that popping over from other units to maintain currency on the Flight's precious aeroplanes have obviously never tried to drive to Coningsby.........
As for 'bona mates' flying with the BBMF..............words fail!!
Incidentally, flying for the BBMF is hardly a 'good deal' which should be made available to those who would otherwise leave the Service whining '''snot fair, Mummy, all those nasty F3 OCU pilots got to fly the Spits and I didn't 'cos I'm a Spicano instructor. WAAAAAH!!!" It is a vocation which only those who have the appropriate blend of flying skills, dedication and personal qualities may perhaps be fortunate enough to be invited to realise.
Those who suggest that popping over from other units to maintain currency on the Flight's precious aeroplanes have obviously never tried to drive to Coningsby.........
As for 'bona mates' flying with the BBMF..............words fail!!
Incidentally, flying for the BBMF is hardly a 'good deal' which should be made available to those who would otherwise leave the Service whining '''snot fair, Mummy, all those nasty F3 OCU pilots got to fly the Spits and I didn't 'cos I'm a Spicano instructor. WAAAAAH!!!" It is a vocation which only those who have the appropriate blend of flying skills, dedication and personal qualities may perhaps be fortunate enough to be invited to realise.
Last edited by BEagle; 12th Apr 2002 at 17:22.
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Well said Beagle.
And given that the Major taught me about 25 years ago on the OCU and must have been in his late 30s then, I can hardly see him being called a (current) front line pilot. Hence one more "bona mate" (spit) stays in the correct cockpit for all those forays abroad. So he is doing the Air Force a favour really.
And given that the Major taught me about 25 years ago on the OCU and must have been in his late 30s then, I can hardly see him being called a (current) front line pilot. Hence one more "bona mate" (spit) stays in the correct cockpit for all those forays abroad. So he is doing the Air Force a favour really.