No more Vulcan from next year
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Nutloose
"Ohh and I do not own a Seal album.... Honestly."
Sure you do, right next to the
Barry Manilow and Engelbert Humperdinck albums
"Ohh and I do not own a Seal album.... Honestly."
Sure you do, right next to the
Barry Manilow and Engelbert Humperdinck albums
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Ah, Winco.
I wondered when you would appear and grace us all with the pearls of your wisdom...
I think you're missing my point a little bit here, and you'd probably be very surprised to discover my own personal thoughts on certain matters and certain individuals are not a million miles away from your own.
Please rest assured that I am absolutely not of the "accidents happen, never mind" school of thought, when it comes to this matter, nor do I think it should be swept under the carpet, however, at this juncture I do not believe that the 'drum bashing' is required.
For all of your loud protestations... demands that the management immediately step down... demands that reports and explanations are given... demands that Robert Pleming answer you directly, what exactly has any of that achieved? Have any of your 'demands' ever been met?
No, of course they haven't, and neither will they be in this instance. I'm not for one moment suggesting that you don't have a point, only that perhaps the constant soap box style rants are serving only to lower your credibility on the subject.
On the subject of a public apology, there has indeed been one issued, and as much as it pains me to appear to stick up for them, here it is as issued at the time. I believe that naming and shaming a single individual, or individuals for their direct failings, would serve no real purpose at this stage other than to appease some people's thirst for a blame figure. I personally don't believe that would be good for anybody.
Personally, since you asked for my thoughts, I'm surprised that it has taken this long for the announcement of 2013 being the final season to be announced. There were seven certified engines available for use at the start of this project, with one removed for high debris count during the first season. That left a total of six. With the entirely avoidable silica incident destroying two of those, suddenly you're down to your final installed four with the entire aircraft limited then to the remaining life of the engine with the lowest amount of cycles on it. Once those cycles are used up, regardless of how much is left on the remaining engines, that's it. Endex...
...So no, I don't believe that this time it is a cynical ploy to wring even more from the cash cow, for certain individuals.
This, however, the hilarious VE3 engineering "centre of excellence", managed by none other than the existing upper echelons of TVOC, is another matter entirely... Obviously, these are only my opinions.
Flipflopman
I wondered when you would appear and grace us all with the pearls of your wisdom...
I think you're missing my point a little bit here, and you'd probably be very surprised to discover my own personal thoughts on certain matters and certain individuals are not a million miles away from your own.
Please rest assured that I am absolutely not of the "accidents happen, never mind" school of thought, when it comes to this matter, nor do I think it should be swept under the carpet, however, at this juncture I do not believe that the 'drum bashing' is required.
For all of your loud protestations... demands that the management immediately step down... demands that reports and explanations are given... demands that Robert Pleming answer you directly, what exactly has any of that achieved? Have any of your 'demands' ever been met?
No, of course they haven't, and neither will they be in this instance. I'm not for one moment suggesting that you don't have a point, only that perhaps the constant soap box style rants are serving only to lower your credibility on the subject.
On the subject of a public apology, there has indeed been one issued, and as much as it pains me to appear to stick up for them, here it is as issued at the time. I believe that naming and shaming a single individual, or individuals for their direct failings, would serve no real purpose at this stage other than to appease some people's thirst for a blame figure. I personally don't believe that would be good for anybody.
“We are deeply sorry that this incident has happened, and at this time in 2012. The additional unplanned costs are clearly very worrying as resources are, as ever very tight” said the charity’s chief executive, Dr.*Robert Pleming. “We are actively working on a plan to recover our Jubilee season schedule and we will share this with you as soon as practical via the newsletter, Facebook page, Twitter feed and the web site.”*
...So no, I don't believe that this time it is a cynical ploy to wring even more from the cash cow, for certain individuals.
This, however, the hilarious VE3 engineering "centre of excellence", managed by none other than the existing upper echelons of TVOC, is another matter entirely... Obviously, these are only my opinions.
Flipflopman
Last edited by flipflopman RB199; 16th Oct 2012 at 18:17.
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form,
Thank you for your measured response.
I would agree that my rantings over the years have achieved little as far as TVOC is concerned, but I would equally suggest that NO comments on this forum over the years have been heeded by them either.
And thereby probably lies their problem. We have a nuclear physicist or something like that, who believes that he and his team know more and know better than anyone else. The warnings that have been expressed over the years about the poor management finally came to a head with the loss of two RR Olympus engines in a 100% avoidable incident. I rest my case frankly.
Yes, there was an general apology on the web site, but have you been to any air shows this year? If you had, like I have, then you would have been given the usual rubbish about this incident, that has become the benchmark for all other incidents concerning the aircraft. Remember the nonesence about the CAA renewal at Waddo a couple of years ago?
Anyway, it will be over soon, and whilst it is sad, it is better than seeing it end up in a very big smoking hole, as so very nearly happened at Robin Hood.
Winco
Thank you for your measured response.
I would agree that my rantings over the years have achieved little as far as TVOC is concerned, but I would equally suggest that NO comments on this forum over the years have been heeded by them either.
And thereby probably lies their problem. We have a nuclear physicist or something like that, who believes that he and his team know more and know better than anyone else. The warnings that have been expressed over the years about the poor management finally came to a head with the loss of two RR Olympus engines in a 100% avoidable incident. I rest my case frankly.
Yes, there was an general apology on the web site, but have you been to any air shows this year? If you had, like I have, then you would have been given the usual rubbish about this incident, that has become the benchmark for all other incidents concerning the aircraft. Remember the nonesence about the CAA renewal at Waddo a couple of years ago?
Anyway, it will be over soon, and whilst it is sad, it is better than seeing it end up in a very big smoking hole, as so very nearly happened at Robin Hood.
Winco
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Originally Posted by Betty
Come on guys. Stop knocking the Reds on this thread.
Why can't you just reminisce about the fine Vulcan, and leave the Reds out of it!
The financial link is tenuous in the extreme. The funding is from completely different sources. Or do you, WW, think it comes from one big pot?? Well done you.
I'm still in the mob, and feel the good the Reds do outweigh the negativity you suggest. Why use this as another reason to knock the "poxy Hawks". Nice. Again, well done you.
Go on. Why not put on some great photos of the Vulcan, ones that we can all enjoy. You know it makes sense.
Why can't you just reminisce about the fine Vulcan, and leave the Reds out of it!
The financial link is tenuous in the extreme. The funding is from completely different sources. Or do you, WW, think it comes from one big pot?? Well done you.
I'm still in the mob, and feel the good the Reds do outweigh the negativity you suggest. Why use this as another reason to knock the "poxy Hawks". Nice. Again, well done you.
Go on. Why not put on some great photos of the Vulcan, ones that we can all enjoy. You know it makes sense.
Not sure what would be achieved by naming the person who might have been responsible for the trashing of those engines, unless it was an act of gross negligence or perish the thought a deliberate act of sabotage. Regarding the last two suggestions, I am sure that is not the case and respect to those that have decided not to name and shame.
Would I prefer to see the De Havilland Mosquito as opposed to this Cold war aircraft? You bet your life I would, a far, far more iconic aircraft which surely has the right to be preserved??
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No one individual was at fault, true one may have left them in there, but the fact they were loose in the intake is also the fault of who decided to adopt that stupid idea, you can also blame the system in place and who devised that for not ensuring they were physically checked before start, or the crew for not checking to see they were physically out on the walkround by counting them....
It all adds up to a catalogue of disasters, but one that was already an accident waiting to happen long before one individual missed them, and for that they are all culpable and not one individual. He just made the error of leaving them in there, others set the ball rolling a long time before the accident happened.
I said at the time, I couldn't understand who would authorise such a stupid idea where things could get missed when rushing to meet a deadline, the place for them if needed in the engine was in the jet pipe where the only thing they will do is get blown out, not sucked through.
It all adds up to a catalogue of disasters, but one that was already an accident waiting to happen long before one individual missed them, and for that they are all culpable and not one individual. He just made the error of leaving them in there, others set the ball rolling a long time before the accident happened.
I said at the time, I couldn't understand who would authorise such a stupid idea where things could get missed when rushing to meet a deadline, the place for them if needed in the engine was in the jet pipe where the only thing they will do is get blown out, not sucked through.
Last edited by NutLoose; 17th Oct 2012 at 09:02.
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I think it should come over here to the US where there is more of a "can do" attitude, rather than the "its not going to be flyable anymore".
Putting on hard hat for the expected US-bashing.
Putting on hard hat for the expected US-bashing.
After all it seems it's future here is either as some static museum piece or being left outside in all weathers 24/7 with a taxi run or two a year; and there's already a couple of Vulcans that do that.
Would I prefer to see the De Havilland Mosquito as opposed to this Cold war aircraft? You bet your life I would, a far, far more iconic aircraft which surely has the right to be preserved??
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Originally Posted by Nutloose
No one individual was at fault, true one may have left them in there, but the fact they were loose in the intake is also the fault of who decided to adopt that stupid idea, you can also blame the system in place and who devised that for not ensuring they were physically checked before start, or the crew for not checking to see they were physically out on the walkround by counting them....
It all adds up to a catalogue of disasters, but one that was already an accident waiting to happen long before one individual missed them, and for that they are all culpable and not one individual. He just made the error of leaving them in there, others set the ball rolling a long time before the accident happened.
I said at the time, I couldn't understand who would authorise such a stupid idea where things could get missed when rushing to meet a deadline, the place for them if needed in the engine was in the jet pipe where the only thing they will do is get blown out, not sucked through.
It all adds up to a catalogue of disasters, but one that was already an accident waiting to happen long before one individual missed them, and for that they are all culpable and not one individual. He just made the error of leaving them in there, others set the ball rolling a long time before the accident happened.
I said at the time, I couldn't understand who would authorise such a stupid idea where things could get missed when rushing to meet a deadline, the place for them if needed in the engine was in the jet pipe where the only thing they will do is get blown out, not sucked through.
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Vulcan
Right wait for incoming flak ! no more Vulcan, well there's a shame, horrible thing to work on, caused me lots of lost skin, pain, sleepless nights (as engine fitter) melt the thing down & make saucepans, that's my take on it, PH.
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It will be sad to see it go. However, I would rather see it bow out gracefully than see a similar mess that another heritage icon is enduring. Flying Scotsman, the peoples locomotive. 6 million pounds later and it has still not turned a spoke.
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Hmmm,
the reds are the public face of UK Plc and the RAF and BAe. Very skillful but maybe in need of a new angle now ? I'd rather see a 3 ship of Typhoons to advertise what we currently have as the cutting edge.
Don't really understand all the sentimentality around the Vulcan, why not a valiant, victor, buccaneer, etc etc . I would pay to see a Lightning fly again but that's an unlikely scenario .
The costs make me think it's better to bow out now.
the reds are the public face of UK Plc and the RAF and BAe. Very skillful but maybe in need of a new angle now ? I'd rather see a 3 ship of Typhoons to advertise what we currently have as the cutting edge.
Don't really understand all the sentimentality around the Vulcan, why not a valiant, victor, buccaneer, etc etc . I would pay to see a Lightning fly again but that's an unlikely scenario .
The costs make me think it's better to bow out now.
Originally Posted by flipflopman RB199
Personally, since you asked for my thoughts, I'm surprised that it has taken this long for the announcement of 2013 being the final season to be announced. There were seven certified engines available for use at the start of this project, with one removed for high debris count during the first season. That left a total of six. With the entirely avoidable silica incident destroying two of those, suddenly you're down to your final installed four with the entire aircraft limited then to the remaining life of the engine with the lowest amount of cycles on it. Once those cycles are used up, regardless of how much is left on the remaining engines, that's it. Endex...
Only I've seen reported from someone that was there today on one of the public visits/tours and they were told by the team that they are currently in the process of replacing two of the engines with two other unused/low time airworthy engines......one engine had already been removed from '558
Last edited by GeeRam; 21st Oct 2012 at 20:56.
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I think you're absolutely right flipflopman, keep it going to the end, that way you get max enjoyment for the public.
If you only conducted displays at costal towns, ergo over the sea, then you could push the old girl to the bally limit until the engines go whoosh! I remember in the Victor that getting out was no drama for the crew (well for 2 of us) and the Vulcan isn't much worse - afterall we were fighting Saddam and his boys with the old Vics having an FI of over 134.5 so no risk there then.
The real clever bit will be to sell lottery tickets at each show based on how long it will fly for before the whole thing has to be ditched in the oggin. If it doesn't crash everyone's a winner and we have a rollover, and if it does then someone scoops a bundle, brilliant! I have some recollection of an Irish lightening guy (can't remember if he was a pilot or nav) putting on a great ejection display from his lightening at an airshow, the crowd loved it and he was a bar God each time he recounted it in the Mess.....oh dear Finningley, happy days.
If you only conducted displays at costal towns, ergo over the sea, then you could push the old girl to the bally limit until the engines go whoosh! I remember in the Victor that getting out was no drama for the crew (well for 2 of us) and the Vulcan isn't much worse - afterall we were fighting Saddam and his boys with the old Vics having an FI of over 134.5 so no risk there then.
The real clever bit will be to sell lottery tickets at each show based on how long it will fly for before the whole thing has to be ditched in the oggin. If it doesn't crash everyone's a winner and we have a rollover, and if it does then someone scoops a bundle, brilliant! I have some recollection of an Irish lightening guy (can't remember if he was a pilot or nav) putting on a great ejection display from his lightening at an airshow, the crowd loved it and he was a bar God each time he recounted it in the Mess.....oh dear Finningley, happy days.
Wildbluewan*er, I'm sure you would have enjoyed gladatorial combat in Roman times.....
.....as a spectator.
Your post is some of the most ridiculous gibberish I've ever read on PPRuNe.
.....as a spectator.
Your post is some of the most ridiculous gibberish I've ever read on PPRuNe.
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My sincere apology oh mighty one, you seem no less interesting than last time we met. As for the lightening nav thing, it was meant to be a joke albeit an old and rather small one - must try harder.
Would I prefer to see the De Havilland Mosquito as opposed to this Cold war aircraft? You bet your life I would, a far, far more iconic aircraft
the bag of scrap metal that the 'People's Mosquito' currently have is going to need a shed load of cash just to get it resembling a Mossie
lightening nav
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My first recollection of the Vulcan was seeing VX770 crash, I waqs a child and my ex-RAF parents always took me to Battle of Britain at home days.
As an ex Gen Fitt who spent from 1967 to 1972 on and around Vulcans I think it is sad to see the Vulcan go. I was at Waddo for the last RAF flight and have seen 558 at Farnborough and Eastbourne as well as seeing it many times at Brize when it operated from there before I retired from indstry.
As for the Reds, spent a year at Valley on the Bomber Dispersal, '69 -70 before a year on the Goose, Gnats were exciting, seeing the Reds at Eastbourne over the last few years find the Hawk totally boring, probably due to health and safety restrictions!
Attended a private day at Kemble on an invite from the late Dave 'Doom' Longden, where the Reds and his own display was superb despite the Reds flying a 7 ship display due to the tragic collision that claimed 4 lives.
In '72 I was at Locking for the 50th anniversary of the Radio School, the Reds display there was possibly the most exciting thing I have ever seen.
MoD would spend their money better by retiring the Reds and sponsoring a complete refit allowing 556 to display for the forseeable future!!
But then I AM baised!!
As an ex Gen Fitt who spent from 1967 to 1972 on and around Vulcans I think it is sad to see the Vulcan go. I was at Waddo for the last RAF flight and have seen 558 at Farnborough and Eastbourne as well as seeing it many times at Brize when it operated from there before I retired from indstry.
As for the Reds, spent a year at Valley on the Bomber Dispersal, '69 -70 before a year on the Goose, Gnats were exciting, seeing the Reds at Eastbourne over the last few years find the Hawk totally boring, probably due to health and safety restrictions!
Attended a private day at Kemble on an invite from the late Dave 'Doom' Longden, where the Reds and his own display was superb despite the Reds flying a 7 ship display due to the tragic collision that claimed 4 lives.
In '72 I was at Locking for the 50th anniversary of the Radio School, the Reds display there was possibly the most exciting thing I have ever seen.
MoD would spend their money better by retiring the Reds and sponsoring a complete refit allowing 556 to display for the forseeable future!!
But then I AM baised!!
Last edited by tantalite; 27th Oct 2012 at 12:30.