No more Vulcan from next year
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BEagle,
With respect, I don't see what purpose banging that particular drum will serve right now.
I am no apologist for TVOC and their dubious practices, however, what occurred, occurred a long time ago and I'm sure it's obvious to all exactly what happened, the reasons it happened and what the consequences of it happening are. We're quite clearly seeing the consequences of it now, and I'm sure it's come as no surprise to anyone with half a clue within the industry. Nothing now, not even a completely unnecessary and non-mandated 'report' will help matters, or change anything, other than to quench your obvious thirst for a blame figure.
For all their many and varied wrongs, I think it admirable that they've made this wise announcement nice and early and ahead of the round of winter fundraising. It's a terrible shame, but all good things must come to an end, and as cheesy as it sounds, at least we've all had the chance to see 558 back in the air for the last 5 years. Hopefully now, we can all look forward to the coming season and enjoy watching something that this time, really will be for the final time.
Flipflopman
With respect, I don't see what purpose banging that particular drum will serve right now.
I am no apologist for TVOC and their dubious practices, however, what occurred, occurred a long time ago and I'm sure it's obvious to all exactly what happened, the reasons it happened and what the consequences of it happening are. We're quite clearly seeing the consequences of it now, and I'm sure it's come as no surprise to anyone with half a clue within the industry. Nothing now, not even a completely unnecessary and non-mandated 'report' will help matters, or change anything, other than to quench your obvious thirst for a blame figure.
For all their many and varied wrongs, I think it admirable that they've made this wise announcement nice and early and ahead of the round of winter fundraising. It's a terrible shame, but all good things must come to an end, and as cheesy as it sounds, at least we've all had the chance to see 558 back in the air for the last 5 years. Hopefully now, we can all look forward to the coming season and enjoy watching something that this time, really will be for the final time.
Flipflopman
PN, there might be other engines, but they won't have the necessary supporting paperwork to enable them to be used in an aeroplane under CAA regulation.
199, if VTS are to encourage people to stump up the cash, they need to give absolute assurance that whatever caused the loss of those priceless engines cannot happen again.
199, if VTS are to encourage people to stump up the cash, they need to give absolute assurance that whatever caused the loss of those priceless engines cannot happen again.
- How was it caused?
- What measures have been put in place to ensure that there won't be a repetiton?
Last edited by BEagle; 13th Oct 2012 at 20:15.
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Pontious,
Unfortunately, that's exactly what they mean. The wing spar mods have never been carried out before, never been properly drawn up, and were simply a paperwork and feasibility exercise based on the fatigue airframe data. This would be a world first and so would have carried its own inherent risks and unknowns, along with the hefty cost of drawing up and implementing brand new modifications.
As goes the engines, it's not simply a case of running out of their own stock of 201's, but a certification issue with Rolls Royce and the CAA. Obviously, in order to be granted a permit in the first instance, TVOC needed the full support of all of the major OEMs and manufacturers. Rolls were happy to certify 7 of the 8 'zero timed' engines that TVOC had in stock, but refused to certify the eighth due to issues over preservation. They absolutely refused to enter into discussion about certifying 'unknown' and unpreserved engines installed 'on wing' on other aircraft.
Rolls Royce live and die on their reputation, and should 558 leave a smoking crater due to the failure of a Rolls Royce engine, 1950's vintage or otherwise, then they could likely kiss goodbye to swathes of orders of their very lifeblood.
Apologies if I am stating the obvious.
Flipflopman
Unfortunately, that's exactly what they mean. The wing spar mods have never been carried out before, never been properly drawn up, and were simply a paperwork and feasibility exercise based on the fatigue airframe data. This would be a world first and so would have carried its own inherent risks and unknowns, along with the hefty cost of drawing up and implementing brand new modifications.
As goes the engines, it's not simply a case of running out of their own stock of 201's, but a certification issue with Rolls Royce and the CAA. Obviously, in order to be granted a permit in the first instance, TVOC needed the full support of all of the major OEMs and manufacturers. Rolls were happy to certify 7 of the 8 'zero timed' engines that TVOC had in stock, but refused to certify the eighth due to issues over preservation. They absolutely refused to enter into discussion about certifying 'unknown' and unpreserved engines installed 'on wing' on other aircraft.
Rolls Royce live and die on their reputation, and should 558 leave a smoking crater due to the failure of a Rolls Royce engine, 1950's vintage or otherwise, then they could likely kiss goodbye to swathes of orders of their very lifeblood.
Apologies if I am stating the obvious.
Flipflopman
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BEagle,
You may be surprised how much I actually agree with your sentiments, however, in reality, a macabre form of punishment has already been meted out in the fact that, notwithstanding a further incident, the aircraft will only be operated for a further year before being grounded permanently.
In answer to your points, the cause was that a bandolier of unaccounted for and unregistered Silica bags, which were serving no actual purpose other than as a potential FOD hazard, were missed or neglected by a member of ground crew, erroneously signed for and were ingested by an engine causing catastrophic failure of that engine, shortly followed by inestion of debris and subsequent failure of the paired engine...
...but I'm quite sure you were already fully aware of that.
As goes the second point, well, obviously I can't really expand on that, however, one would hope that lessons have been learned from this incident, and the silica has been left where it rightfully belongs, in long term stored engine bags, along with the correct paperwork, dessicant indicators, ovens, and controlled conditions.... and new shoes.
Flipflopman
You may be surprised how much I actually agree with your sentiments, however, in reality, a macabre form of punishment has already been meted out in the fact that, notwithstanding a further incident, the aircraft will only be operated for a further year before being grounded permanently.
In answer to your points, the cause was that a bandolier of unaccounted for and unregistered Silica bags, which were serving no actual purpose other than as a potential FOD hazard, were missed or neglected by a member of ground crew, erroneously signed for and were ingested by an engine causing catastrophic failure of that engine, shortly followed by inestion of debris and subsequent failure of the paired engine...
...but I'm quite sure you were already fully aware of that.
As goes the second point, well, obviously I can't really expand on that, however, one would hope that lessons have been learned from this incident, and the silica has been left where it rightfully belongs, in long term stored engine bags, along with the correct paperwork, dessicant indicators, ovens, and controlled conditions.... and new shoes.
Flipflopman
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I am no apologist for TVOC and their dubious practices, however, what occurred, occurred a long time ago
Has anyone yet seen any report concerning the completely avoidable
destruction of 2 airworthy and quite priceless Olympus engines earlier this
year?
I agree with others elsewhere. Time to call it a day, savour the memories, let some of those who have enjoyed a very good living out of 558 over the past few years reflect, thank those that didn't, and move on. Finally.
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No it didn't flipflop
Apologies if I didn't make that more clear.
Flipflopman
Last edited by flipflopman RB199; 13th Oct 2012 at 21:26.
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With regards to the silica bag/engine incident, I don't think there have ever been any public reports into it, however in the latest 'Consolidated Report and Accounts' document it states; and I quote
In late may 2012, two of the aircraft's engines were damaged beyond repair as the result of a servicing error during the preparation of the aircraft for flight. The damaged engines were replaced by two of the remaining four available engines; the aircraft undertook a test flight following the engine change on 28th June. Aircraft servicing and resourcing procedures have been changed to eliminate the risk of a similar occurrence.
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much as I like to see it flying, to my way of thinking the silica incident suggests a management and maintenance mindset which indicates the sooner the aircraft is grounded, the safer we all will be.
the South African Lightning report clearly indicates the potential issues with civilians trying to keep old military aircraft airborne. I don't suggest the Vulcan operators are cast in the same mould as those incompetents, but the fact remains that trying to keep any complex aircraft flying without the proper resources is an accident waiting to happen.
the silica should be taken as a warning. The aircraft should be grounded, now.
the South African Lightning report clearly indicates the potential issues with civilians trying to keep old military aircraft airborne. I don't suggest the Vulcan operators are cast in the same mould as those incompetents, but the fact remains that trying to keep any complex aircraft flying without the proper resources is an accident waiting to happen.
the silica should be taken as a warning. The aircraft should be grounded, now.
It would be nice if there was money available to fly the older aircraft, at public expence. The Red's and the BBMF are both great, but there's an awfull lot of hardware gone between the two...
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Come on guys. Stop knocking the Reds on this thread.
Why can't you just reminisce about the fine Vulcan, and leave the Reds out of it!
The financial link is tenuous in the extreme. The funding is from completely different sources. Or do you, WW, think it comes from one big pot?? Well done you.
I'm still in the mob, and feel the good the Reds do outweigh the negativity you suggest. Why use this as another reason to knock the "poxy Hawks". Nice. Again, well done you.
Go on. Why not put on some great photos of the Vulcan, ones that we can all enjoy. You know it makes sense.
Why can't you just reminisce about the fine Vulcan, and leave the Reds out of it!
The financial link is tenuous in the extreme. The funding is from completely different sources. Or do you, WW, think it comes from one big pot?? Well done you.
I'm still in the mob, and feel the good the Reds do outweigh the negativity you suggest. Why use this as another reason to knock the "poxy Hawks". Nice. Again, well done you.
Go on. Why not put on some great photos of the Vulcan, ones that we can all enjoy. You know it makes sense.
The reds are indeed fine exponents of aerobatic flying; that does not interest me in the slightest.
I prefer historic aircraft, particularly 'heavy metal', of which the Vulcan is Britain's most impressive example.
The taxpayer comment was aimed at another post that has been 'disappeared', in finest S. American form.
In any case money is money, at least I have a choice in whether to contribute to the Vulcan fund, as a taxpayer I have no choice as to what the MoD does with it.
So, please take you sarcastic little comments and shove them... Yours is an attitude that makes me glad to leave the job, and those of your ilk, in my past.
Last edited by Willard Whyte; 14th Oct 2012 at 07:18.
Perhaps if the didnt pay Dr Pleming in excess of £80,000 a year and I beleive the pilots a similar amount (happy to be corrected on that one) they might have more money to fund the aircraft mods etc. It will be a sad loss from the skys.
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WW in one, went to Cosford for first time in years and left before the Reds, same show different year, they're like comfort food, always there, looks good, but tends to be bland... Don't get me wrong, it's all very skilful but it is just so bland to watch... The Vulcan lets you know it's there in both sight and sound.....
Does look like the gravy train is pulling into the station though... Whhooooo whooooo...
.
Does look like the gravy train is pulling into the station though... Whhooooo whooooo...
.
Last edited by NutLoose; 14th Oct 2012 at 16:56.
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Hmmmm. Watching the Reds is like buying a Seal album, dress it up however you want, but it will just be the same songs regurgitated over and over again.
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I will be sad to see it go, but pleased that we won't have to listen to the drivel that comes from TVOC year-in and year-out.
FFM199 - the reason why the likes of BEagle and myself keep banging the drum about the engine incident is because it has shown and proven what a poor set up this whole thing is. Not only that, but in my opinion the people who have donated millions of pounds to the project have a right to be given a public apology for the negligence by some (one) that caused the loss of two irreplaceable engines. Has there been any apology whatsoever?
Indeed, the lack of public apology displays yet further arrogance on the part of TVOC management, who obviously don't feel the need to give such an apology, and continue to treat their sponsors as if they were ignorant fools. They are not fools and shame on TVOC for treating them as such.
Of course, as has been suggested, this announcement might just be another ploy to get another significant donation for the project and line Dr Pleming's pockets for another year eh?? What do you think?
As for the Reds?? Just leave them alone for goodness sake.
Winco
FFM199 - the reason why the likes of BEagle and myself keep banging the drum about the engine incident is because it has shown and proven what a poor set up this whole thing is. Not only that, but in my opinion the people who have donated millions of pounds to the project have a right to be given a public apology for the negligence by some (one) that caused the loss of two irreplaceable engines. Has there been any apology whatsoever?
Indeed, the lack of public apology displays yet further arrogance on the part of TVOC management, who obviously don't feel the need to give such an apology, and continue to treat their sponsors as if they were ignorant fools. They are not fools and shame on TVOC for treating them as such.
Of course, as has been suggested, this announcement might just be another ploy to get another significant donation for the project and line Dr Pleming's pockets for another year eh?? What do you think?
As for the Reds?? Just leave them alone for goodness sake.
Winco
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I have seen both the Vulcan and the Reds fly, the Reds on numerous occasions,
albeit quite a few years ago now.
As much as the Vulcan inspires awe, the Reds are the public face of the RAF
but the major point I want to make it even though the Reds might be "Hmmmm. Watching the Reds is like buying a Seal album, dress it up however you want, but it will just be the same songs regurgitated over and over again." as Nutloose put it, he is looking at it from a perspective of one person seeing it multiple times.
The general public on the other hand might only see it very few years,
either at a sea side performance like Bournemouth or if they do a FAMILY
trip to something like Farnborough. This is repeated every few years as kids grow up and again as they have families themselves.
And then on top of that, you have the next generation who grow up who
haven't seen it before so to them at a young age it is a "wow" moment
and the point in time when seeds are planted that they want to become
a Fast jet pilot.
The last two are a never ending regeneration of new spectators.
I think we forget that.
In addition, compared to the 70's and 80's, the general public are a lot more
exposed to these type of events and extreme sports now than back then so to some extent it might have lost some of it's Wow factor.
Edit
I only used Nutloose's post as it was the most succinct and
convenient to quote.
.
albeit quite a few years ago now.
As much as the Vulcan inspires awe, the Reds are the public face of the RAF
but the major point I want to make it even though the Reds might be "Hmmmm. Watching the Reds is like buying a Seal album, dress it up however you want, but it will just be the same songs regurgitated over and over again." as Nutloose put it, he is looking at it from a perspective of one person seeing it multiple times.
The general public on the other hand might only see it very few years,
either at a sea side performance like Bournemouth or if they do a FAMILY
trip to something like Farnborough. This is repeated every few years as kids grow up and again as they have families themselves.
And then on top of that, you have the next generation who grow up who
haven't seen it before so to them at a young age it is a "wow" moment
and the point in time when seeds are planted that they want to become
a Fast jet pilot.
The last two are a never ending regeneration of new spectators.
I think we forget that.
In addition, compared to the 70's and 80's, the general public are a lot more
exposed to these type of events and extreme sports now than back then so to some extent it might have lost some of it's Wow factor.
Edit
I only used Nutloose's post as it was the most succinct and
convenient to quote.
.
Last edited by 500N; 15th Oct 2012 at 19:56.
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What we need is the funding generation used to keep the Vulcan on the circuit to be used to keep a VC10 on the go... 
Ohh and I do not own a Seal album.... Honestly.
Ohh and I do not own a Seal album.... Honestly.
Last edited by NutLoose; 15th Oct 2012 at 22:33.