Gliding - a question to the military guys
Yellow Sun,
I once flew an ex-leader of the Reds in a two-seat glider out of a well-known mountain site. He was amazed by the experience and stated that, in terms of situational awareness, lookout and airmanship, an exposure to such flying would be of considerable benefit to all fast-jet pilots.
But then what do I know..........?
I once flew an ex-leader of the Reds in a two-seat glider out of a well-known mountain site. He was amazed by the experience and stated that, in terms of situational awareness, lookout and airmanship, an exposure to such flying would be of considerable benefit to all fast-jet pilots.
But then what do I know..........?
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Yellow Sun
I might be a bit biased but as a former RAF pilot and VGS CO I can tell you that a number of young men have come back to me and said how their gliding experience was of great value. However, all had been Staff Cadets/Civilian Gliding Instructors with Instructor Categories prior to joining the RAF. So it may be a matter of how experienced a glider pilot you were.
In my own case I think that my having done a Flying Scholarship on Austers and holding a PPL (after having soloed on gliders) made a difference. But as that was 50 years ago I am not sure I remember whether I recognised this at the time.
ACW
I might be a bit biased but as a former RAF pilot and VGS CO I can tell you that a number of young men have come back to me and said how their gliding experience was of great value. However, all had been Staff Cadets/Civilian Gliding Instructors with Instructor Categories prior to joining the RAF. So it may be a matter of how experienced a glider pilot you were.
In my own case I think that my having done a Flying Scholarship on Austers and holding a PPL (after having soloed on gliders) made a difference. But as that was 50 years ago I am not sure I remember whether I recognised this at the time.
ACW
Below the Glidepath - not correcting
However I feel that gliding has about the same relevance to professional military flying as archery has to weapons skills.
Although less prevalent in Military flying, where the training emphasis is very much on "if something bad hasn't happened, it's about to", there is a plethora of recent accidents and incidents where pilots failed to "fly" their aircraft, often right into the ground/water. Many of those accidents have the same thing in common; an obsession with the software or aircraft system being foolproof, when the opposite was true. If you understand the fundamental principles of flight - thrust vs drag, lift vs gravity, and how basics such as AoA and wing loading affect those factors, you are likely to enjoy a happy and safe career in aviation. When you don't understand those things and something goes wrong, your life just got a lot harder.
Just as Archery teaches you breathing control, focus and aiming principles that are relevant for any hand held weapon, there is probably no better environment for learning airmanship principles than inside a glider. It's much easier to experience and understand aeros, adverse yaw and accuracy in Engine-Off Landings when you are doing it every flight.
So I agree with you that gliding has about the same relevance to professional military flying as archery has to weapons skills.
Last edited by Two's in; 21st Sep 2012 at 17:19.
Originally Posted by Mighty Gem
The next 60 hours on Gazelles weren't.
1st solo Lynx (not even a BAT to talk to) was much more fun!
ACW418
Your experience mirrors mine, I soloed in a glider in 1963 and went on to complete a Flying Scholarship a couple of years later. I had been a staff cadet a Gliding School which earned me around 200 launches. Like you I suspect that my previous experience assisted during the early stages of flying training but I do not believe that it made any significant difference to the final result.
In later years my experience as a QFI reinforced this belief. At BFTS those with significant previous experience usually initially progressed a bit quicker , but by IHT the performance gap had narrowed considerably and by FHT there was no discernible difference. Ability was the prime factor, not previous training. 120 hours on a UAS and PFB was no insurance against suspension in basic training.
Over the years I have flown with pilots and crew members from many backgrounds, exhibiting the whole range of experience and aptitude (including the odd ex-member of the Red Arrows 1.3VStall). I cannot say that the glider pilots stood out in any way from the rest. It didn't seem to matter whether they spent their spare time mountain biking, sailing, gliding, playing golf or restoring old cars. They displayed the normal range of ability found in professional aviation. However the glider pilots did make slightly better company on a night sector than the golfers
1.3VStall
Yes, what do you know? I would attend your opinion more weight if you supported it with evidence from your own experience and chose not to rely on that of others.
YS
In my own case I think that my having done a Flying Scholarship on Austers and holding a PPL (after having soloed on gliders) made a difference. But as that was 50 years ago I am not sure I remember whether I recognised this at the time.
In later years my experience as a QFI reinforced this belief. At BFTS those with significant previous experience usually initially progressed a bit quicker , but by IHT the performance gap had narrowed considerably and by FHT there was no discernible difference. Ability was the prime factor, not previous training. 120 hours on a UAS and PFB was no insurance against suspension in basic training.
Over the years I have flown with pilots and crew members from many backgrounds, exhibiting the whole range of experience and aptitude (including the odd ex-member of the Red Arrows 1.3VStall). I cannot say that the glider pilots stood out in any way from the rest. It didn't seem to matter whether they spent their spare time mountain biking, sailing, gliding, playing golf or restoring old cars. They displayed the normal range of ability found in professional aviation. However the glider pilots did make slightly better company on a night sector than the golfers
1.3VStall
But then what do I know..........?
YS
Last edited by Yellow Sun; 21st Sep 2012 at 20:39.
Some years ago a BBMF Spitfire XIX landed at my then VGS on a weather diversion. Whilst making coffee for the pilot I asked him about the handling qualities of the aircraft compared with earlier Marks. His words, almost verbatim, were "well, your senior chaps could probably handle any of these aircraft very well because your basic stick-and-rudder skills are excellent and you know about finesse. Actually they'd probably be better than most current FJ pilots".
I felt nine feet tall that day.
I felt nine feet tall that day.
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Yellow Sun
I think we are in some kind of agreement and as a QFI I bow to your greater experience. I would, however, prefer to be addressed correctly i.e. ACW418.
ACW
I think we are in some kind of agreement and as a QFI I bow to your greater experience. I would, however, prefer to be addressed correctly i.e. ACW418.
ACW
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I think my time at a VGS helped my powered flying training. Possibly as I was teaching a guy to fly a Viking at the weekend, and the same guy was teaching me in a Bulldog two days later. Which if nothing else, improved the instructor / student relationship...
Last edited by si.; 21st Sep 2012 at 20:04.
Yellow Sun,
As you're an ex-RAF QFI, I will bow to your undoubted expertise. Quite clearly my thousands of hours flying (both gliding and powered) makes me ill equipped to add anything of value to this thread.
As you're an ex-RAF QFI, I will bow to your undoubted expertise. Quite clearly my thousands of hours flying (both gliding and powered) makes me ill equipped to add anything of value to this thread.
Why does it always have to degenerate into personal abuse (or very nearly so)? I would think that ANY experience airborne would help in some way to your future progression in the aviation world. (I am sure it did in my case). I know that a Sedburgh/Tutor or, indeed, a Tiger Moth, is in no way equivalent to (take your pick) a Piston Provost, Vampire, Meteor, Jet Provost, Gnat or Hawk. Having flown all I still reckon that I was well served by every minute that I had in the air - in whatever "kite".
No RAF section in my school CCF, but I went solo with the RAFGSA in a T-21 at 16. Because I wasn't in the ATC or CCF(RAF), the RAF wouldn't allow me any air experience flying at the nearest AEF.....but through RN contacts I had a trip in the coal hole of a 'Vixen.
Still, the Army section of the CCF taught me some of the stuff needed during Officer Training; I also learned about ancient army wireless sets and short wave communications - knowing how to set up the Telephone F Mk 2 even helped 10 years later during a field exercise during leadership training at RAFC.
ATC or CCF membership will certainly help build respect for the discipline required for a military career - add gliding to that and you have the recipe to a sound basis for learning to become a military pilot. Many of us followed the gliding / flying scholarship / UAS route, so started JP training with a reasonable grounding in the basics. But the advantage soon gives way to the greater need for ability and spare capacity.
Still, the Army section of the CCF taught me some of the stuff needed during Officer Training; I also learned about ancient army wireless sets and short wave communications - knowing how to set up the Telephone F Mk 2 even helped 10 years later during a field exercise during leadership training at RAFC.
ATC or CCF membership will certainly help build respect for the discipline required for a military career - add gliding to that and you have the recipe to a sound basis for learning to become a military pilot. Many of us followed the gliding / flying scholarship / UAS route, so started JP training with a reasonable grounding in the basics. But the advantage soon gives way to the greater need for ability and spare capacity.
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ACW418
I did a Flying Scholarship, in 1967, mostly on Cessna 150's but we did the aerobatics in an Auster (Aiglet J5F IIRC). What fun!
My previous gliding experience really helped, at first, because I just understood stick and rudder and having spun a Sedbergh I wasn't scared of spinning the Auster (maybe I should have been).
It was at Carlisle Flying Club where we were accommodated in wooden huts. The real reason I didn't take up a flying career was that it turned out I was colour blind. I had to get an RT licence before they would let me fly solo. My instructor was a milkman with an Italian sounding name (Capt Cosimini IIRC). On GH sorties we always flew round his customer base. So for me, most sorties were milk runs!
The cross country, in a Cessna 156 (4 seater) was Carlisle, Blackpool, Middleton St George, Carlisle. Joined at Blackpool - total radio failure, nothing heard, nothing transmitted. But it was OK because I had an RT licence!
Radio fixed - carried on. Finally got back to Carlisle. Noticed that the runway and surrounds had become distinctly untidy and overgrown while I'd been away. Also noticed that the taxi instructions from the tower didn't make sense. Finally noticed that I had landed on the disused strip near the flying club. Managed to taxi back over some bumpy grass. Probably just as well that I couldn't pursue a career in the air.
Still don't think I'm colour blind - I think it's everyone else.
Anyone else do a Flying Schol at Carlisle?
Rgds SOS
My previous gliding experience really helped, at first, because I just understood stick and rudder and having spun a Sedbergh I wasn't scared of spinning the Auster (maybe I should have been).
It was at Carlisle Flying Club where we were accommodated in wooden huts. The real reason I didn't take up a flying career was that it turned out I was colour blind. I had to get an RT licence before they would let me fly solo. My instructor was a milkman with an Italian sounding name (Capt Cosimini IIRC). On GH sorties we always flew round his customer base. So for me, most sorties were milk runs!
The cross country, in a Cessna 156 (4 seater) was Carlisle, Blackpool, Middleton St George, Carlisle. Joined at Blackpool - total radio failure, nothing heard, nothing transmitted. But it was OK because I had an RT licence!
Radio fixed - carried on. Finally got back to Carlisle. Noticed that the runway and surrounds had become distinctly untidy and overgrown while I'd been away. Also noticed that the taxi instructions from the tower didn't make sense. Finally noticed that I had landed on the disused strip near the flying club. Managed to taxi back over some bumpy grass. Probably just as well that I couldn't pursue a career in the air.
Still don't think I'm colour blind - I think it's everyone else.
Anyone else do a Flying Schol at Carlisle?
Rgds SOS
Last edited by SOSL; 22nd Sep 2012 at 13:17. Reason: Insert the Italian name
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I should like to ask whether your gliding experience has contributed in any way to your subsequent professional flying skills?
What I do know is that coming back the other way can prove a humbling experience. I left the F-4 with just under 1,000 on type and while on leave waiting for my next course managed to get the chance of a ride in a Tiger Moth at Redhill. Piece of cake thinks I, how hard can this possibly be....? Talk about a rude shock! Very soon I found myself struggling with an aircraft that needed constant re-trimming in pitch every time you changed the IAS by a fraction of a knot, no rudder trim and a slip needle that seemed to have only 2 positions: full left or full right. Then when it came to trying to land the bloody thing, 2 knots fast and it would float the length of the airfield and at the merest hint of crosswind would start going as fast sideways as it was forwards - and all this with an undercarriage made of pared-down matchsticks (or so it seemed to me). I don't think I've ever worked so hard in my life, and definitely learned at first hand why "simple" types like the Tiger Moth and the Chipmunk were so good for ab-initio flying grading.
So, my answer to the OP's question would be that even if being a good glider pilot won't mean you'll sail through military flying training, being a fast-jet mate won't necessarily make you an ace in a glider and certainly not in a Tiger Moth!
Last edited by Ali Qadoo; 22nd Sep 2012 at 09:46.
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You went SOLO in a Lynx???
The Navy do it all the time
Apologies for thread drift...
Last edited by Wizzard; 22nd Sep 2012 at 11:52.
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AQ's post has just rekindled an old memory. When I was OC Handling and Rectification Flt at Church Fenton, in 1980, one of the studes took me up in his Gypsy Moth for a short flight over York and Tadcaster. What fun!
The speaking tube was quite effective....If you were that stude and you're on PPrune please speak to me.
Rgds SOS
The speaking tube was quite effective....If you were that stude and you're on PPrune please speak to me.
Rgds SOS
You went SOLO in a Lynx???
Viking.....yes in a way....it was the noise!
One of the fellows with all the pads and that massive wooden club got all mesmerized by the sight of the glider approaching....got Clean Bowled....and as the Glider whizzed by over his head.....from out of the vent window came a very loud and British "Howszat!" or word(s) to that effect. He was not amused!
It is in the Journal kept by the Club....circa 1977-78'ish as I recall.
One of the fellows with all the pads and that massive wooden club got all mesmerized by the sight of the glider approaching....got Clean Bowled....and as the Glider whizzed by over his head.....from out of the vent window came a very loud and British "Howszat!" or word(s) to that effect. He was not amused!
It is in the Journal kept by the Club....circa 1977-78'ish as I recall.
Certainly did. 1989 BAOR TOW concentration EDUH. 0.2 Solo, auth'ed by Colonel Mike to ferry a spare airframe up to the FARP on Himmelsthur. FARP was choked so I went round twice, hence the 0.2.
indeed! Thought you were referring to your conversion course.
1989 BAOR TOW concentration EDUH.
